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Tackling the problem of null-sec ratting bots.

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E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#81 - 2014-05-16 15:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
Tauranon wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
General Nusense wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing



This "proof" is a load of ****. If you are only making 69 mil isk per hour ratting anoms in nullsec, you either 1) suck or 2) dont know how to rat. Please have someone with "skills" and knows how to "iskperhour" do it. Then go to Highsec and run LVL 4 missions and compare the two. Your "proof" will be a joke, like everyone knows it is.


That's what isk you make using the most popular ratting ship the ishtar.

Max you will ever make from anoms is 90 mil/hr

High sec level 4 missions not only matches that but 100+ mil/hr isnt too hard to do. That's before we get into incursions.


Ugggh here we go again with the fabricated numbers which we know have to be true because this is in fact the internet and I AM A FRENCH MODEL

BONJOUR


I have a system you can borrow if you'd like to prove them wrong.

Thanks, but why worry with it? I will continue to do the things that make the most isk for me, not what someone else would like for me to believe.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#82 - 2014-05-16 15:51:28 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

Thanks, but why worry with it? I will continue to do the things that make the most isk for me, not what someone else would like for me to believe.


Here's a translation for those who don't speak French.

"I refuse to do anything that might challenge the falsehoods behind my preconceptions. Because Grr Goons."

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#83 - 2014-05-16 16:24:00 UTC
It's a good thing that the CCP security people aren't like the forum warriors that only care about blaming the players they don't like for the botting.

Botting happens in the game. Period.

How does the righteous indignation of various factions that contribute to the fracturing of what should be something that all of us should be united against solve anything? It doesn't, of course. Just more petty bickering by the forum morons that will use anything and everything to further their agenda.

I'm glad that CCP seems to understand that it's a systemic problem and not just a high sec/ low sec/ whatever thing. Get off your partisan horses for 5 minutes every once in as while. Take a step back. Look at how stupid you are being and laugh at yourselves.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-05-16 16:30:37 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
It's a good thing that the CCP security people aren't like the forum warriors that only care about blaming the players they don't like for the botting.

Botting happens in the game. Period.

How does the righteous indignation of various factions that contribute to the fracturing of what should be something that all of us should be united against solve anything? It doesn't, of course. Just more petty bickering by the forum morons that will use anything and everything to further their agenda.

I'm glad that CCP seems to understand that it's a systemic problem and not just a high sec/ low sec/ whatever thing. Get off your partisan horses for 5 minutes every once in as while. Take a step back. Look at how stupid you are being and laugh at yourselves.

Mr Epeen Cool

To add onto what he is saying, I've popped out of a wormhole and roamed in just about every single null region in EVE at some point. I have seen bottish behavior in all of these places and don't even really care to remember who it was that I suspected of botting. There is a botbear living in every backyard.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.
Veld San
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-05-16 19:42:26 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
If you see someone you suspect is botting, petition it. Don't come to the forums with (a) new stupid idea.


If petitioning worked and was effective then there would not be anywhere near as many CFC bots as there are. 90%+ of them would disappear. Obviously petitioning and reporting is completely ineffective in this situation and no longer worth the bother.
Veld San
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-05-16 19:53:55 UTC
Namiene wrote:
We have seen a lot of work done to ensure that perceived 'mining bots' have been reduced or removed entirely by a sustained campaign of AFK cloaking camps in null and suicide gankers in highsec. These benevolent efforts have gone a long way towards ensuring the players who actually play the game are not ripped off by those who use more nefarious means (botting / automation)

However we still lack adequate means / efforts to reduce the impact upon the economy made by ratting bots. How can it be fair to the people who actually play the game to have their profits reduced by those who afk farm rat belts and anoms afk for 23 hours every day.

So i have a proposal for tackling the issue. Alongside the proposed reduction in rat drops of refinable loots we also lower the bounties of rats found in belts and anomalies as well as removing any chance or seriously reducing the chance of faction spawns in said belts and anomalys. 'But this isnt fair'!, i hear you cry.

In order to compensate the players who live in null and rightfully deserve an increased profit for thier time in game; we move the faction spawns into scannable plex's and increase the bounties on the ordinary rats in said plex's We also increase the drop rate of valuable modules from scannable plex's

All of these outlined proposals would not only 'cut off the oxygen' of the botters so to speak. But will also ensure that those players who actually play the game get maximised profits for their hard work and for their loots.


Discuss.

(p.s. sorry for poor spelling and or grammar.)



I agree with you, for me, this boils down to flying into CFC bots. I am sure there are other bots in game as well, but I just haven't ran into them. Most commonly I run into a battleship followed by between 9-16 Algosses.

As far as game mechanics go the following is what makes the botting easier and more managable:

1. Drone assist - this would have to be re-balanced so that it requires actual interactivity from players on a random time interval.
2. Disallow any 3rd party apps, currently there is some 3rd party app, I forgot the name, that the bots use to let them synchronize multiple clients and run simoultaneously. If CCP changed TOS / EULA to specifically disallow it then implimented tools to check for this, bots would die.
3. Make the game overall less automated and more player interactive.
4. Change SOV mechanics, so that botting content pays out less, lets say make it worth 50% of what high sec equivalent lvl missions pay out, risk vs reward doesn't matter, since actually, ratting in high sec is more risky then ratting in goon space anyways.
5. Do what other games have done: require certain player inputs at certain little randomized intervals, otherwise game logs you out to character screen. This is very successfull in most MMORPGs in combating common AFK bots. This would also adress not just the ratting bots bot mining, cloaky sitters etc. many other bot types as well as ratting, it would be great.
Veld San
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-05-16 20:03:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

That's what isk you make using the most popular ratting ship the ishtar.

Max you will ever make from anoms is 90 mil/hr

High sec level 4 missions not only matches that but 100+ mil/hr isnt too hard to do. That's before we get into incursions.

Run anoms with the bling ships used in high sec, profit. You try to back this argument up every time by comparing apples & oranges. 'We use a cheap T2 Cruiser that doesn't make as much as a 10 billion isk battleship, so something is wrong'.

Also incursions support no more than 80 people with 100 mil/hr (Assuming 23/day like one can rat, and we all know ratting bots do exist, heck, Bots were capable of handling the old probe interface, let alone the new one, they certainly can rat). if you want to take a higher benchmark citing perfect TCRC walls & perfect pirate fleets all with officer bling that number of people supported drops to about 40. Across ALL OF EVE! Including those Null sec incursions that get run to clear cyno jam effects. So, lets stop pretending Incursions are actually significant when talking about income.


90 mil/hr is the most you will get out of anoms with a bling boat. High sec missions beats that, hence why when we tell GSF pilots how to make isk for cap ships most of the advice is to take advantage of high sec.



Hi

I play only 3 months, and am not sure what you're smokin' but I make way more then that. It is very difficult to put an amount on it due to the extreme randomness since total income depends on drops, but ....

Minimum I make is around 35 mil / hour, thats bare minimum in low / null. In high sec on lvl 4s, this drops to as low as 4 mil / hour.

Now the maximums. Maximums are super hard to average out, but max I have made so far in null is 1.8 bil / hour, but thats taking into account the drops. Max I have made in high sec, is around 40 mil / hour, high sec just doesn't seem to have the kind of drops you can get in low / null. So 1.8 bil in low / null vs 40 mil in high sec.

However to be fair, due to the rare and random drops in null, my actual rate is closer to somehing like 80 mil / hour vs still 40 mil / hour in high sec. To be also fair, this character is 3 months old, I can only fly T1 ships and my skills are all around lvl 3s, some 4s. Anyone thats able to fly a T2 should be averaging around 2-3 times what I do at a leisurely pace, as I know the guys I play with do.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#88 - 2014-05-16 20:38:18 UTC
kaarous...you should not bother replying to anything I post as you have been blocked for a while now. I seen you replied from one of my other accounts, but not to worry that has be rectified as well. Big smile

You sir have been weighed and measured and found to be a troll.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2014-05-16 20:44:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
According to this years presentation the Forge and Lonetrek once again dwarf everywhere else for combat bots and mining bots.


But who are the player behind all those bots? That's what I want to know.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-05-16 22:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Veld San wrote:
2. Disallow any 3rd party apps, currently there is some 3rd party app, I forgot the name, that the bots use to let them synchronize multiple clients and run simoultaneously. If CCP changed TOS / EULA to specifically disallow it then implimented tools to check for this, bots would die.


That's called ISBoxer, which has nothing to do with botting

Veld San wrote:
4. Change SOV mechanics, so that botting content pays out less, lets say make it worth 50% of what high sec equivalent lvl missions pay out, risk vs reward doesn't matter, since actually, ratting in high sec is more risky then ratting in goon space anyways.


Right, let's also nerf highsec mining and l4 missions into the ground (i.e. 20% of what they currently pay out) because that's the most heavily botted content in the game. See the failure of your logic here?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Dave Stark
#91 - 2014-05-16 22:54:08 UTC
Veld San wrote:
Hi

I play only 3 months, and am not sure what you're smokin'


gotta admit, i got this far then disregarded everything else in your post.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-05-16 23:08:55 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
According to this years presentation the Forge and Lonetrek once again dwarf everywhere else for combat bots and mining bots.


But who are the player behind all those bots? That's what I want to know.


a banned one, eventually, I hope.



as for the information presented in the keynote

concentrations of RMT/Bot activity were highlighted on an eve-map
the only region with clear evidence of TOTAL bot/rmt absence was Jove-Space .. because we the players can't go there

6 titans have been repossessed
titans can only be constructed in sov-nul, so someone somewhere out in 'nerf hi-sec land' is doing stuff they shouldn't be
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-05-16 23:17:34 UTC
General Nusense wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing



This "proof" is a load of ****. If you are only making 69 mil isk per hour ratting anoms in nullsec, you either 1) suck or 2) dont know how to rat. Please have someone with "skills" and knows how to "iskperhour" do it. Then go to Highsec and run LVL 4 missions and compare the two. Your "proof" will be a joke, like everyone knows it is.


How about you create a standardized test using a method that can be meaningfully compared and anyone can perform then post the results publicly. From your crappy criticism I can tell you have a) very little experience ratting in nullsec, b) no experience with common ratting strategies, c) no idea how to create a method that is easily testable by others, and d) are in capable of understanding the scientific method.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-05-16 23:27:45 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
kaarous...you should not bother replying to anything I post as you have been blocked for a while now. I seen you replied from one of my other accounts, but not to worry that has be rectified as well. Big smile

You sir have been weighed and measured and found to be a troll.


Ahahahahahahahaha the irony meter exploded from this post.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#95 - 2014-05-16 23:29:19 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
kaarous...you should not bother replying to anything I post as you have been blocked for a while now. I seen you replied from one of my other accounts, but not to worry that has be rectified as well. Big smile

You sir have been weighed and measured and found to be a troll.


Ahahahahahahahaha the irony meter exploded from this post.


I know, right? I tried to reply, but I couldn't think of anything to say that wasn't just laughter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#96 - 2014-05-16 23:31:12 UTC
Namiene wrote:
We have seen a lot of work done to ensure that perceived 'mining bots' have been reduced or removed entirely by a sustained campaign of AFK cloaking camps in null and suicide gankers in highsec. These benevolent efforts have gone a long way towards ensuring the players who actually play the game are not ripped off by those who use more nefarious means (botting / automation)

However we still lack adequate means / efforts to reduce the impact upon the economy made by ratting bots. How can it be fair to the people who actually play the game to have their profits reduced by those who afk farm rat belts and anoms afk for 23 hours every day.

So i have a proposal for tackling the issue. Alongside the proposed reduction in rat drops of refinable loots we also lower the bounties of rats found in belts and anomalies as well as removing any chance or seriously reducing the chance of faction spawns in said belts and anomalys. 'But this isnt fair'!, i hear you cry.

In order to compensate the players who live in null and rightfully deserve an increased profit for thier time in game; we move the faction spawns into scannable plex's and increase the bounties on the ordinary rats in said plex's We also increase the drop rate of valuable modules from scannable plex's

All of these outlined proposals would not only 'cut off the oxygen' of the botters so to speak. But will also ensure that those players who actually play the game get maximised profits for their hard work and for their loots.


Discuss.

(p.s. sorry for poor spelling and or grammar.)


Came here hoping to read about proposed solutions to also address the rampant "permit enforcement" bots that float around hi-sec.

Leaving disappointed.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-05-16 23:45:43 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
kaarous...you should not bother replying to anything I post as you have been blocked for a while now. I seen you replied from one of my other accounts, but not to worry that has be rectified as well. Big smile

You sir have been weighed and measured and found to be a troll.


Ahahahahahahahaha the irony meter exploded from this post.


I know, right? I tried to reply, but I couldn't think of anything to say that wasn't just laughter.


I thought of something but, its a long shot:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4603364#post4603364

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#98 - 2014-05-16 23:50:11 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
kaarous...you should not bother replying to anything I post as you have been blocked for a while now. I seen you replied from one of my other accounts, but not to worry that has be rectified as well. Big smile

You sir have been weighed and measured and found to be a troll.


Ahahahahahahahaha the irony meter exploded from this post.


I know, right? I tried to reply, but I couldn't think of anything to say that wasn't just laughter.


I thought of something but, its a long shot:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4603364#post4603364


And my axe.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-05-17 00:22:19 UTC
One simple question: Prince Kobol, La Nariz, why the hell are you guys defending botting in null sec?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#100 - 2014-05-17 00:27:18 UTC
Xavier Higdon wrote:
One simple question: Prince Kobol, La Nariz, why the hell are you guys defending botting in null sec?


I would say that they're not, they're merely pointing out that nullsec botting is far, far less of a systemic problem than highsec botting.

Highsec botting is there, it's real, and it's been developer acknowledged to be the primary problem, with more bots than every other area of space combined.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.