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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#541 - 2014-05-16 19:53:33 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

you're not entitled to it.


Actually, the issue is that those who didn't have CDO V are not entitled to have the same drone damage as someone who did pre-patch.

they are entitled to the new skill. that the new skill increases another attribute is inconsequential to maintaining anyone else's abilities.
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#542 - 2014-05-16 19:56:37 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
they are entitled to the new skill. that the new skill increases another attribute is inconsequential to maintaining anyone else's abilities.
This is such nonsense.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#543 - 2014-05-16 19:57:15 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.

sp is a number that has no ingame effect. except making your clone more expensive.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#544 - 2014-05-16 19:59:46 UTC
Xasnevian wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
they are entitled to the new skill. that the new skill increases another attribute is inconsequential to maintaining anyone else's abilities.
This is such nonsense.

many anger

wow
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2014-05-16 20:01:38 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
you're entitled to receive the full effect of every skill you train for. if the skill is replaced with another, you receive the new one. which is what ccp is doing, for everybody.

as in the past, where characters have receieved the battlecruiser and destroyer skills for every race. where characters can still fly orcas, command ships and capitals without having the prerequisites anymore.

everyone receiving the new skills did train for them, by having cdo or sdo. they trained for the ability to fly drones or increased drone damage. ccp sees the need to rebalance the skills and in doing so is ensuring everyone can still do what they trained to do.

for fairness.


Thank you. And as a paying subscriber, I would expect that I get the full effect of every skill I train for. I'm not advocating that we remove any drone ability from anyone who could use it previously. I'm advocating that those who trained CDO5 be reimbursed in some fashion because of the lack of need to train the CDO5 skill but still acquire the same advantage.

The fact that people who only trained a level 1 skill and some people trained a level 1 and level 2 skill are getting the same level of SP is where I find an imbalance.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2014-05-16 20:02:36 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.

sp is a number that has no ingame effect. except making your clone more expensive.


Eh.. then you should clear out your skill queue... for all your alts.
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#547 - 2014-05-16 20:03:52 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.

sp is a number that has no ingame effect. except making your clone more expensive.
These SP that have "no ingame effect" actually give certain players Light drone operation 5 and Medium drone operation 5 for free.
Mario Putzo
#548 - 2014-05-16 20:05:04 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
you're entitled to receive the full effect of every skill you train for. if the skill is replaced with another, you receive the new one. which is what ccp is doing, for everybody.

as in the past, where characters have receieved the battlecruiser and destroyer skills for every race. where characters can still fly orcas, command ships and capitals without having the prerequisites anymore.

everyone receiving the new skills did train for them, by having cdo or sdo. they trained for the ability to fly drones or increased drone damage. ccp sees the need to rebalance the skills and in doing so is ensuring everyone can still do what they trained to do.

for fairness.


You've got to be trolling. This is in no way remotely similar to the BC/Destroyer change, this is in no way similar to the changes to Command Ships or Capitals. CCP didn't give anyone free skills in these scenarios.

BC change took BC skills and applied them to Racial Skills. No bonus skills, you had level 3 BC you kept level 3 BC.
Same with Destroyers. - Didn't lose anything, Didn't gain anything.

With the pre-req changes to Carriers people didn't suddenly wake up with level 5 Amarr Carrier, the woke up with the ability to train level 1 Amarr Carrier (assuming they met the prereq) - Didn't lose anything, Didn't gain anything

With this change people will be gifted the 25% damage boost by having an completely unrelated skill trained. - Don't lose anything, but some folks will be gaining skill effects they do not have trained.

Do you see the difference?
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2014-05-16 20:12:29 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
you're entitled to receive the full effect of every skill you train for. if the skill is replaced with another, you receive the new one. which is what ccp is doing, for everybody.

as in the past, where characters have receieved the battlecruiser and destroyer skills for every race. where characters can still fly orcas, command ships and capitals without having the prerequisites anymore.

everyone receiving the new skills did train for them, by having cdo or sdo. they trained for the ability to fly drones or increased drone damage. ccp sees the need to rebalance the skills and in doing so is ensuring everyone can still do what they trained to do.

for fairness.


Question: is there a skill right now, which put in a skill queue, will be completely wasted? If I have SDO V now, and I put CDO in my skill queue, am I not wasting it? Ask yourself: *would you put it in your skill queue?* If there ANY good reason to put it in your skill queue now? No.

Now, *why* won't you put it in your skill queue? If you're getting the full effect of every skill you train for after the patch, then it shouldn't make a difference! Obviously, this means you are *not* getting the full effect of the skill you trained for, so something must be missing from your analysis.

What's missing from your analysis is that the skill effect you train for is "an advantage over players who don't have the skill", and "an equal bonus with those that do". The first of these effects is being removed, so no, you are not getting the "full effect".

I think this counters your point conclusively? Or did I make a mistake in my analysis?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#550 - 2014-05-16 20:22:02 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
What's missing from your analysis is that the skill effect you train for is "an advantage over players who don't have the skill", and "an equal bonus with those that do". The first of these effects is being removed, so no, you are not getting the "full effect".

no, the skill effect you train for is '5% drone damage'. you'll still have that.
Quote:

Question: is there a skill right now, which put in a skill queue, will be completely wasted? If I have SDO V now, and I put CDO in my skill queue, am I not wasting it? Ask yourself: *would you put it in your skill queue?* If there ANY good reason to put it in your skill queue now? No.

yes. 5% drone damage.

Quote:
You've got to be trolling. This is in no way remotely similar to the BC/Destroyer change, this is in no way similar to the changes to Command Ships or Capitals. CCP didn't give anyone free skills in these scenarios.

all are part of their standing policy of 'what you can fly today you can fly tomorrow'.

Quote:
I'm advocating that those who trained CDO5 be reimbursed in some fashion because of the lack of need to train the CDO5 skill but still acquire the same advantage.

ah, but cdo gives 5% drone damage per level. training sdo has never given 5% damage per level.

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#551 - 2014-05-16 20:24:16 UTC
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2014-05-16 20:25:20 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
ah, but cdo gives 5% drone damage per level. training sdo has never given 5% damage per level.

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?

Not sure if sarcasm.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#553 - 2014-05-16 20:28:23 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:


Quote:
I'm advocating that those who trained CDO5 be reimbursed in some fashion because of the lack of need to train the CDO5 skill but still acquire the same advantage.

ah, but cdo gives 5% drone damage per level. training sdo has never given 5% damage per level.

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?


Of course not. That's because it's being given to everyone on an equal basis. What being debated is the fact that an SDO5 player is getting the same advantage as a SDO5 + CDO5 player who's trained for a longer period.
Mario Putzo
#554 - 2014-05-16 20:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Benny Ohu wrote:

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?


Thats exactly what people are complaining about...and with good reason. SDO to 5 will give you 25% damage the day after the patch. A bonus that it doesn't even poses currently. CDO is effectively redundant in the equation at this point. Which means it is a skill that is simply being removed, it is not being repurposed it is vanishing, it is being rolled into SDO which will then apply to all new skills.

Alternatively people with SDO1 and CDO 5 will be given an extra 20KM range that they never had before. Which is equally poor implementation.

And because of the way the skills are you can't even make the SP apply to the new skills in an equal fashion.

So once again we fall back to:

Use SDO as the basis for new skills.
Remove CDO outright reimburse SP.

If you have 5/0 you get all the skills no SP
If you have 5/5 you get all the skills and SP to repurpose your now lost advantage over the 5/0 folks
If you have 1/5 you get new skills at 1 and SP to be used however you want (perhaps into the new skills you just got @ lvl1)

You keep saying "fair" and "equal" and that ^ Is the only thing that is fair and equal.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#555 - 2014-05-16 20:33:15 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010

Which has nothing to do with this.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#556 - 2014-05-16 20:33:59 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
ah, but cdo gives 5% drone damage per level. training sdo has never given 5% damage per level.

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?

Not sure if sarcasm.

hahaha i think i got it the wrong way around. what does sdo unlock again?

/clears throat

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free t2 drones, do we?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#557 - 2014-05-16 20:35:38 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010

Which has nothing to do with this.

i think it's hilarious is what it's got to do with this

it's players who trained mining barge v to unlock orcas complaining that someone else can unlock orcas without mining barge v.

in both cases, it's players whining that another player will be able to do something the speaker can already do with a little less training, and demanding reimbursement
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#558 - 2014-05-16 20:42:20 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010

Which has nothing to do with this.

i think it's hilarious is what it's got to do with this

it's players who trained mining barge v to unlock orcas complaining that someone else can unlock orcas without mining barge v.

in both cases, it's players whining that another player will be able to do something the speaker can already do with a little less training, and demanding reimbursement
Difference being CDO V only has 1 function which is being given to everyone, but people with mining barge at less than V didn't get max bonused barges. Similar, but a notable difference. There is NO function of CDO which people who trained SDO V won't have, there are plenty of functions of mining barge V that people with a lower level won't have despite getting orca access at III.
Mario Putzo
#559 - 2014-05-16 20:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Benny Ohu wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
ah, but cdo gives 5% drone damage per level. training sdo has never given 5% damage per level.

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free 25% drone damage, do we?

Not sure if sarcasm.

hahaha i think i got it the wrong way around. what does sdo unlock again?

/clears throat

we don't have anyone complaining that everyone who trained sdo5 and cdo0 is getting free t2 drones, do we?


Um they aren't getting free T2 Drones.

Lights = SDO 5 + Racial Spec I
Meds = SDO 5 + Racial Spec 2.

People who have SDO 1 + CDO 5 however will be gifted access to Racial Spec which is also poor implementation in terms of "fairness and equality"


Always funny to see people talk about **** like they know whats up, and don't even know the basis of what they are talking about. Where I come from we call that "Talking out your ass"
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#560 - 2014-05-16 20:45:30 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
oh hey i found the old orca reimbursement thread, lawl

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=204010

Which has nothing to do with this.

i think it's hilarious is what it's got to do with this

it's players who trained mining barge v to unlock orcas complaining that someone else can unlock orcas without mining barge v.

Was Mining Barge removed from the game? No.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)