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Mission Running (goal: L4 eventually)

Author
Azazil Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-05-16 18:11:01 UTC
I have a few general questions about mission running. All these questions are only for mission running; eventually L4 solo.

1. Which tanking is more popular/easier to manage in PvE? Passive tanking, Shield Tanking or Armor Tanking?

2. Which weapon type is more popular? Energy, Hybrid or Missile? I've been using Hybrid so far. Recently I used Lasers and I loved how I could easily swap crystals and change range/damage. Didn't like how fast my cap was getting dry. Never fired a single missile yet.

3. My ultimate goal (right now) is to fly L4 missions solo. Since they are so unforgiving, I'd rather have a ship that has low dps but can stay alive easily than one with high dps but tough to stay alive! (BattleShips are super expensive; I don't think I can ever afford to lose one!). Which particular ship/lineup I should shoot for?

Thanks.

P.S. I know its mostly personal preference.
P.P.S: Remember years ago when you were new? Us new players can't afford T2 ships or faction fittings!
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-05-16 18:29:54 UTC
Just on 3)

They're not unforgiving, they're actually quite easy. You don't want a high tank, low DPS or you'll actually be better off running L3s. Once you're on L4 income, battleships aren't expensive, at least the T1 ones aren't.

There's no one best ship or weapon.
Missiles are easy-mode
Lasers are efficient in Amarr space, less so everywhere else
Drones are awesome
Hybrids have huge range (or insane damage)

You're best off focusing on your core and support skills while you work your way up in both skills and ISK. Use that time to figure out how you enjoy flying ships, up close and fast, distant and sniping, etc

p.s. Don't ever fly what you can't afford to lose/replace.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-16 18:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
1. "Easiest" passive shield. You don't have to manage anything. Active shield and Active armor and functionally similar and more interesting because you have ot pay attention to cap.
2. You missed two weapon systems here. Projectiles and Drones. The top mission boats currently would be Cruise Missile Raven Navy Issue, Sentry Drone Dominix, and Autocannon or Artillery Machariel. (I may be a tad out dated). If you want "fall asleep at the keyboard" easy, look into the rattlesnake or scorpion navy issue. The Rattlesnake is going to be changed come summer, but the skills for a Dominix are transferable.
3. Level 4 missions are mindnumblingly easy. They are actually soloable in some t2 frigates if you have good skills, but this takes awhile. To complete them efficiently two months into the game you will want a tech 1 battleship. Anything smaller will require better skills and better knowledge of the game. Any t1 battleship will be able to complete them, but ships with selectable damage types have a speed advantage in general.

If you really want to do missions (I hate em), I'd recommend flying gallente drone boats (basic progression is tristan -> algos -> vexor -> myrmidon -> Dominix/Ishtar). Gallente BS is required for multiple pirate battleships including the Rattlesnake, Machariel, and Vindicator. Every race uses drones, so the weapon training is useful where ever you go.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Azazil Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-05-16 18:38:11 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Just on 3)

They're not unforgiving, they're actually quite easy. You don't want a high tank, low DPS or you'll actually be better off running L3s. Once you're on L4 income, battleships aren't expensive, at least the T1 ones aren't.

There's no one best ship or weapon.
Missiles are easy-mode
Lasers are efficient in Amarr space, less so everywhere else
Drones are awesome
Hybrids have huge range (or insane damage)

You're best off focusing on your core and support skills while you work your way up in both skills and ISK. Use that time to figure out how you enjoy flying ships, up close and fast, distant and sniping, etc

p.s. Don't ever fly what you can't afford to lose/replace.


I've heard couple of times how missiles are easier to use. Is there a reason for it?

Too bad for Lasers.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-05-16 18:41:17 UTC
Azazil Amatin wrote:
I've heard couple of times how missiles are easier to use. Is there a reason for it?


Target enemy. Press F1. Repeat until all enemies dead. No concern about tracking, optimal or falloff as you have in the other weapon systems.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-05-16 18:45:29 UTC
Azazil Amatin wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Just on 3)

They're not unforgiving, they're actually quite easy. You don't want a high tank, low DPS or you'll actually be better off running L3s. Once you're on L4 income, battleships aren't expensive, at least the T1 ones aren't.

There's no one best ship or weapon.
Missiles are easy-mode
Lasers are efficient in Amarr space, less so everywhere else
Drones are awesome
Hybrids have huge range (or insane damage)

You're best off focusing on your core and support skills while you work your way up in both skills and ISK. Use that time to figure out how you enjoy flying ships, up close and fast, distant and sniping, etc

p.s. Don't ever fly what you can't afford to lose/replace.


I've heard couple of times how missiles are easier to use. Is there a reason for it?

Too bad for Lasers.

Missiles can't miss. Guns can. If you fly a gun boat you have to pay attention to transversal velocity. The reason the raven navy issues is popular the bonus to explosion radius that increases its damage on smaller targets.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Elzira Kore
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-05-16 18:45:55 UTC
Azazil Amatin wrote:
1. Which tanking is more popular/easier to manage in PvE? Passive tanking, Shield Tanking or Armor Tanking?

Passive tanking is a form of shield tanking. Both forms of tanking are viable for missions. I'd wager that shield tanking is more popular, since shield tank modules use mid slots, leaving low slots free for weapon damage modules.

Passive shield tanking is the easiest to manage, since you don't have to worry about pulsing repairers/boosters. You flip on any resistance modules at the start of the fight and then you're done. Since you rely on passive regeneration, you're not nearly as affected by capacitor-draining, something that can be the bane of active tanks.

In the end though, both paths are viable.

Quote:
2. Which weapon type is more popular? Energy, Hybrid or Missile? I've been using Hybrid so far. Recently I used Lasers and I loved how I could easily swap crystals and change range/damage. Didn't like how fast my cap was getting dry. Never fired a single missile yet.

Same as with tanking, there are many viable options with their own advantages and disadvantages. Lasers do good damage, but drain your capacitor relatively quickly. Missiles have the advantage that you can select the damage type that you deal (different missiles deal different types of damage). An advantage to using gunnery-based weapons (lasers, hybrid turrets, projectile turrets) is that the share the same support skills. So if you switch from one weaponsystem to another within gunnery, you only have to skill up your new weapon and you already have the support skills.

Quote:
3. My ultimate goal (right now) is to fly L4 missions solo. Since they are so unforgiving, I'd rather have a ship that has low dps but can stay alive easily than one with high dps but tough to stay alive! (BattleShips are super expensive; I don't think I can ever afford to lose one!). Which particular ship/lineup I should shoot for?

A popular entry-level L4 mission fit is a Dominix with sentry drones and a micro jump drive. The sentries, when supported with the right modules, have very good range and deal good damage. The micro jump drive can jump your ship 100km away. So you can deploy sentries, pop enemies until they come to close, recall the sentries, use the MJD and redeploy at a safe distance. This setup reduces the amount of tank and DPS you need since the enemies will be out of range for a large portion of the time.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#8 - 2014-05-16 19:08:03 UTC
The truth is, every BS can solo L4 missions easy. There are simply different degrees of easy. Drone boats can give the option of near AFK missioning. Set drones to aggressive attack, go eat lunch, come back and move on to the next room in the mission. This is actually a bad habit because there are ways that aggressive players can take advantage of such a playstyle due to a drone exploit.

Lasers are just fine if you prefer to mission for Amarr, they can fly missions for other races too but just not as fast. It is also possible to set up mission fits that are cap stable running one armor rep with 2 hardeners if you are feeling lazy, but ideally you will eventually want to pulse the rep and use the extra low slots for dps mods such as heat sinks. As Amarr though you will want to give Cap skills a high priority, they were the very first skills I raised to V. Also, keep in mind that standard crystals have no cap penalty, so switch to standards when cap starts getting low.

What is more important is deciding who you want to mission for,

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-05-16 19:08:06 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Azazil Amatin wrote:
I've heard couple of times how missiles are easier to use. Is there a reason for it?


Target enemy. Press F1. Repeat until all enemies dead. No concern about tracking, optimal or falloff as you have in the other weapon systems.

also, auto-targeting missiles for maximum laziness.

@OP: once you have good skills, a mission dominix will literally pay for itself within three hours. in fact, probably the most important reason why people fly expensive ships is because they don't know where else to put the money.

also, as has already been stated before, lvl4 missions are very easy once you know how to complete them. in fact, once you have good damage skills, you can complete many of them with just your shield buffer. some of the setups i currently fly involve a battleship with a small shield booster and still tank any mission i accept.

as for weapon choice: they all have their ups and downs.
- missiles are easier to get into for the reasons stated above, but some people cannot stand the flight time and having to manually switch targets to avoid wasting damage.
- hybrids are nice in general but unfortunately, blasters tend to be a little too short ranged for missions while railguns have underwhelming DPS (and sometimes problems with tracking).
- as you have noticed, lasers do eat a lot of capacitor, so you will need good engineering skills in addition to good gunnery skills. they do very good damage at very good ranges, but only against rats that have low EM and thermal resists. shooting guristas or angels with lasers can be very frustrating, so people generally try to avoid missions against them.
- projectile turrets are somewhere in the middle between lasers and hybrids with the additional bonus of selectable damage type. their applied damage is usually *ok* but not great and some people scoff at the high ammo consumption of autocannons.


if i were you (and i was you three years ago or so), i would just pick a ship that looks cool and is generally accepted to be a good mission ship and train for that. the ISK, experience etc. will come with time.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Viserys Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-05-16 19:11:35 UTC
I think you are going to find there is no easy answer.

I've run L4 missions in drone boats, a laser T3, and projectile battleship.

Each have pros and cons.

Drone boat was probably the 'easiest' but depending on NPC agro, could be very slow if you had to keep reeling in your drones to reset agro.

For me, the Legion was probably the most fun. Speed and signature tanking keeps it fun. So long as I did it right, rarely did my rep even get online. With good skills, they can be cleared pretty fast. Downside is if you want to loot and salvage as their cargo bays can be a bit anemic. But as mentioned, unlike missiles and drones, you do have to watch your transversals and sometimes have to turn away from your targets to get them to follow you so you can hit them (specifically, some of missions with drones).

I think my best all around was a Machariel. Good speed, good range, drone bay for the little ships and a set of salvage drones to clean up my mess. Honestly, the Mach was probably the most efficient mission running I had when you took a full look at full clears, loot, and salvage.

As far as tanking, that will greatly depend on the ship. My Mach was mostly a buffer tank. My Legion was set up for active armor. Each ship will tend to have a certain tendancy for tanking preferences. Generally, active tanking will usually mean your build is slanted towards more DPS. To get passive tanking, you are usually sacrificing DPS slots to get the tanking mods in. Shield based turret based ships are the exception, since their buffer and tank come mostly from Mid slots, and DPS mods are in low. But for armor ships, you are usually balancing DPS and tank.

You'll also usually find that as you get better skills, you may change your builds. A lot of times, the easiest and most efficient way of taking on L4s is to kill the NPCs faster, thus reducing your tanking requirements. When you can alpha most of the small ships before they are even in range, who needs to tank their DPS?

Running L4s isn't really about survival. Running any missions really aren't about survival, they are about efficiency. If you can't efficiently run L4s with your current skills, don't. You'll likely make better isk/hr in L3s. Trust me, I tried L4s way too early. Spending 1-1.5 hours kiting around and trying to clear a mission is not efficient. I went back to L3s in my cruisers and hacked away until my skills were better.

Viserys Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-05-16 19:13:01 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

if i were you (and i was you three years ago or so), i would just pick a ship that looks cool and is generally accepted to be a good mission ship and train for that. the ISK, experience etc. will come with time.


Repeated for truth. go with cool and make it happen. My favorite ship to fly is still the Algos.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-05-16 19:39:25 UTC
Do NOT passive tank a mission ship with a few rare exceptions.
To make a good passive tank you need to use far to many slots and will gimp your dps horribly.
There is a valid passive ishtar fit.
There is a soon to be extinct passive rattlesnake fit.
The june buffs to the rattlesnake will make using all the lows damage/ application mods the best way to go and likely need the rigs for missile application.
Higher dps from you equals dead rats and thus quickly reducing incoming damage and higher isk/hr and less boredom from watching a rat slowly die.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Jason Station
Critical Mass Inc
#13 - 2014-05-16 20:03:18 UTC
I spent a lot of time in AB fit Active Shield tanks projectile ships (usually the Machariel). Lately though I have been using AB Active Shield tanked Fleet Issue Typhoons using Cruise Missiles for missioning. I prefer it over the raven because the the damage bonus, smaller sig radius, and higher top speed. It is low stress and now with the tractor units I just orbit and clean up.

I personally do not like drones much, but I have watch the sentry drone guys clean house really fast with their setups. I usually only carry light drones for stuff that gets in to close.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-05-16 20:26:00 UTC
Viserys Anstian wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

if i were you (and i was you three years ago or so), i would just pick a ship that looks cool and is generally accepted to be a good mission ship and train for that. the ISK, experience etc. will come with time.


Repeated for truth. go with cool and make it happen. My favorite ship to fly is still the Algos.

There's some truth to this, but there's also using the right tool for the job. My Enyo is probably not the best tool for level 4 missions, but its the most fun.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Marsan
#15 - 2014-05-16 21:00:34 UTC
One important thing to note is there is a vast difference in difficulty between L4. Some L4 are indeed very easy. Some easy if you know which ship triggers the next wave. A few actually are challenging unless you have good skills and a good fit. It's best to checkout any new L4 on eve survival before tackling it.

PS- The reason lasers suck for missions is they do em/thernal which is horrible against some factions. Hybrid guns likewise suffer similar issues. Ideally with projectiles, and missiles you simply swap out to the correct ammo for the faction in the mission. Like wise you want to change your shield or armor resists to counter the opposing faction.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-05-16 21:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vortexo VonBrenner
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#17 - 2014-05-17 09:55:33 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Both shield and armor tanked ships can be passive or active, they're not three different things.

Active tank simply means you are using a shield booster or armor repair module you...um...activate to fix damage to your shield or armor. They use energy from your capacitor but generally fix more damage faster.

Passive tank uses modules like shield extenders or armor plates to increase your overall hitpoints rather than fixing faster using capacitor energy.

Active tanks are often used for PVE, passive tanks often for PVP. Active tanks repair more damage, but are vulnerable to energy neutralizers draining a ship's capacitor. PVP players figure the action will be over one way or another before active booster / repair could be effective anyway, better to have as many hit points available up front and ones that can't be drained by neuts. However, both active or passive are used in PVE.

Don't use both shield and armor tanking on the same ship. Pick one. You want module slots open to be able to do other things as well. In general, if a ship has more low slots, it should be armor tanked, if more mid slots, shield tanked.

Speed tanking is making a ship fast enough that it is hard to hit and missiles aren't as effective against it either. If it gets slowed down, however - such as from having a stasis webifier used on it or perhaps hitting something big - it will die fast.



This post is a youdon'tsay.jpg post? Maybe...but not everybody knows this stuff, right?








You are getting buffer talks and passive tanks confused.

Buffer tank = high EHP, no way to realistically repair it
Passive tank = medium to high EHP in shields, with a very high shield regeneration rate. Your shield repairs itself, with no modules required.

Passive tanks are nearly universal in solo level 5 missions if you aren't using capital ships, because buffer tanks do not last long enough and active tanks cannot be sustained through all the energy neutralizing in level 5s. They work in level 4s but are rarely used.

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Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-05-18 07:02:16 UTC
Mission income scales with missions ran
Frigates are Cheap, L1 missions don't pay a lot
Battleships are semi expensive, L4 missions do pay quite well

By the time your ready to run L4's, you'll have earned enough isk from running L3's to buy a battleship
All four Major factions offer atleast 1 good missioning battleship
Another good option is a T3 Cruiser, but can be a little more pricey than a typical battleship

Whilst your running L1-3 missions train for a T2 tank, and just T1 small/medium weapons
When you start running L4's train the relevant weapon skill so you can train/use the T2 version

A T2 Active tank (Armour or Shield) needs 3-4 modules (1 repairer, 2-3 Hardeners)
That leaves the rest of your fitting slots free for DPS, DPS application and capacitor management
DPS Application is modules like Tracking Computers, Target Painters and such

A T2 Passive Shield Tank will need at least 6 Modules, based around +Shield HP modules, Shield Hardeners and +Shield Regen-rate Modules

A Passive Armour Tank (also called a buffer tank) is normally only used for PvP fits