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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#521 - 2014-05-16 17:56:22 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
no. you receive the same ingame abilities ~or better~ as before the change. the replacement is not to give you skills for free. it is to ensure you don't lose anything. people trying to game the system don't get special treatment.
So you think it is unfair for people to lose abilities, but if some people gain abilities and some do not, you call this fair?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#522 - 2014-05-16 17:59:04 UTC
You did get a benefit. you got increased drone damage for training it.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#523 - 2014-05-16 18:05:15 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Really? Everyone who had learning skills also could do everything that they could before. CCP reimbursed the SP to maintain their advantage. There really is no significant difference.

because skills were removed and training time was lost. in this case, skills are being changed.

Quote:
So you think it is unfair for people to lose abilities, but if some people gain abilities and some do not, you call this fair?

everyone is able to do whatever they could do before. yes. this is fair.

jeepers, if i'd whined half as hard as this lot when i ~lost my advantage~ of being able to fly itty v when others couldn't Roll
Mario Putzo
#524 - 2014-05-16 18:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Benny Ohu wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
They rage because they are not being treated equally.

everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.


This is blatantly false.



If I have SDO trained to 5 and CDO trained to 0 I get the following.

Current:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones
+25KM Drone control range.
0% Damage Bonus to Light or Medium drones.

Post Change:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones (L/M Operation)
+25KM Drone Control Range (Drone Avionics)
+25% Damage (L/M Operation).

Do you see the difference?

Anyone who has SDO to 5 and CDO to 5 is losing their advantage. I don't think its wasted SP, but it is most definitely CCP gifting people who have not trained the skill the bonuses from said skill. Which is poor implementation.

Easiest way is to just Axe CDO, give everyone the SP they trained into CDO, and roll all the new skills out of SDO.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#525 - 2014-05-16 18:08:14 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
They rage because they are not being treated equally.

everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.


This is blatantly false.

i had thought it was obvious but apparently it wasn't. but i've already corrected the mistake.

there's no way to prevent some people gaining something without special-casing... which is not treating everyone equally
Marsha Mallow
#526 - 2014-05-16 18:09:43 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
jeepers, if i'd whined half as hard as this lot when i ~lost my advantage~ of being able to fly itty v when others couldn't Roll

I have an alt with max drones and Marsha still does better damage in joint fleets with 15m less SP in Drones. All the supports are similar, I seriously don't get it. Don't really care either, it's amusing.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Mario Putzo
#527 - 2014-05-16 18:15:35 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
They rage because they are not being treated equally.

everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.


This is blatantly false.

i had thought it was obvious but apparently it wasn't. but i've already corrected the mistake.

there's no way to prevent some people gaining something without special-casing... which is not treating everyone equally


Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#528 - 2014-05-16 18:38:06 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
They rage because they are not being treated equally.

everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.


This is blatantly false.



If I have SDO trained to 5 and CDO trained to 0 I get the following.

Current:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones
+25KM Drone control range.
0% Damage Bonus to Light or Medium drones.

Post Change:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones (L/M Operation)
+25KM Drone Control Range (Drone Avionics)
+25% Damage (L/M Operation).

Do you see the difference?

Anyone who has SDO to 5 and CDO to 5 is losing their advantage. I don't think its wasted SP, but it is most definitely CCP gifting people who have not trained the skill the bonuses from said skill. Which is poor implementation.

Easiest way is to just Axe CDO, give everyone the SP they trained into CDO, and roll all the new skills out of SDO.


Me Currently:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones
+25KM Drone control range.
25% Damage Bonus to Light or Medium drones.

Me After Change:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones (L/M Operation)
+25KM Drone Control Range (Drone Avionics)
+25% Damage (L/M Operation)

No change for me. So others get a free bonus, so what? You are not going to get a SP reimbursement. You have not lost Skill points. The skill that is being removed will be replaced with two skills of equal value. If you currently have CDO trained to 5 then you are getting the drone damage bonus. Those waiting for the changes do not. So the trade off is you get better drones now, while they have to wait.
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#529 - 2014-05-16 18:43:52 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
You have not lost Skill points.
Yes I have. If I trained a another skill instead of CDO, I would have those skillpoints as well.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#530 - 2014-05-16 18:43:55 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.

the change isn't to maintain advantage, it's to maintain what abilities you have. the cdo skill increases drone damage of light and medium drones. you will recieve two skills, one of which increases light drone damage, and one of which increases medium drone damage.

when you chose to train cdo, you were told you'd get 25% drone damage for 512,000 sp. thanks to ccp's skill replacement policy, that ability is guaranteed to you. you will never have to spend more sp to keep what you have.

that's the entire point of the change. if some people think they're losing advantage over someone else, that's their own problem.

i'll be flying my command ship, which i can still fly, instead of worrying about who else can fly iteron fives, which i can also still fly.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#531 - 2014-05-16 18:47:27 UTC
Xasnevian wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
You have not lost Skill points.
Yes I have. If I trained a another skill instead of CDO, I would have those skillpoints as well.

yes. for the miscommunication in the devblog, you do deserve an apology. they still haven't fixed it.
Mario Putzo
#532 - 2014-05-16 18:53:35 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.

the change isn't to maintain advantage


Well duh, thats why people are upset with the intended change. Are you a rocket scientist?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#533 - 2014-05-16 19:03:20 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.

the change isn't to maintain advantage


Well duh, thats why people are upset with the intended change. Are you a rocket scientist?


then they're asking to be special-cased and they don't deserve attention.
Mario Putzo
#534 - 2014-05-16 19:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.

the change isn't to maintain advantage


Well duh, thats why people are upset with the intended change. Are you a rocket scientist?


then they're asking to be special-cased and they don't deserve attention.


No they are asking that CCP allow them to keep the advantage they trained for, or reimburse them because that advantage is being given away for "free".

The special cases are the guys who only have SDO trained to 5 but will log in after patch day with drones acting like they have both SDO and CDO to 5. Is it so wrong for people to want to maintain their combat advantage or be able to apply that advantage elsewhere when a group of people are being gifted the exact same skill set despite not having invested the training time to attain it?
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#535 - 2014-05-16 19:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Estella Osoka wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
They rage because they are not being treated equally.

everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.


This is blatantly false.



If I have SDO trained to 5 and CDO trained to 0 I get the following.

Current:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones
+25KM Drone control range.
0% Damage Bonus to Light or Medium drones.

Post Change:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones (L/M Operation)
+25KM Drone Control Range (Drone Avionics)
+25% Damage (L/M Operation).

Do you see the difference?

Anyone who has SDO to 5 and CDO to 5 is losing their advantage. I don't think its wasted SP, but it is most definitely CCP gifting people who have not trained the skill the bonuses from said skill. Which is poor implementation.

Easiest way is to just Axe CDO, give everyone the SP they trained into CDO, and roll all the new skills out of SDO.


Me Currently:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones
+25KM Drone control range.
25% Damage Bonus to Light or Medium drones.

Me After Change:
Ability to use Light and Medium Scout Drones (L/M Operation)
+25KM Drone Control Range (Drone Avionics)
+25% Damage (L/M Operation)

No change for me. So others get a free bonus, so what? You are not going to get a SP reimbursement. You have not lost Skill points. The skill that is being removed will be replaced with two skills of equal value. If you currently have CDO trained to 5 then you are getting the drone damage bonus. Those waiting for the changes do not. So the trade off is you get better drones now, while they have to wait.




By the same logic give me the refund in SP. You haven't lost anything and as long as you don't care if someone else is getting an extra bonus, you shouldn't care if I do right? If you really didn't care, this whole topic wouldn't exist.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#536 - 2014-05-16 19:37:16 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
The special cases are the guys who only have SDO trained to 5 but will log in after patch day with drones acting like they have both SDO and CDO to 5.

no. they're receiving the skills that allow them to fly the drones they already can fly. as anyone with cdo trained to v will receive the skills that maintain the same amount of drone damage. what you can use today, you can use tomorrow, as with every other skill replacement.

in other words, they're being treated the same as everyone else.

Quote:
No they are asking that CCP allow them to keep the advantage they trained for, or reimburse them because that advantage is being given away for "free".

you're not entitled to it.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2014-05-16 19:43:17 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
The special cases are the guys who only have SDO trained to 5 but will log in after patch day with drones acting like they have both SDO and CDO to 5.

no. they're receiving the skills that allow them to fly the drones they already can fly. as anyone with cdo trained to v will receive the skills that maintain the same amount of drone damage. what you can use today, you can use tomorrow, as with every other skill replacement.

in other words, they're being treated the same as everyone else.

Quote:
No they are asking that CCP allow them to keep the advantage they trained for, or reimburse them because that advantage is being given away for "free".

you're not entitled to it.


Are you entitled to play the game? Are you entitled to use this discussion board? Are you entitled to make your opinion known? Of course you are. In some fashion or another you've earned the right either by paying with a subscription or buying plex that someone else paid for and paying for you subscription that way. CCP doesn't have to make this game. CCP doesn't have to give us this discussion board CCP Doesn't have to let you post your opinion here. But they do because it's part of what you're paying for.

That being said this if you must address it as being entitlement then I would say it's not entitlement, it's about 1 character getting a free bump in SP that they didn't train for.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#538 - 2014-05-16 19:49:04 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

you're not entitled to it.


Actually, the issue is that those who didn't have CDO V are not entitled to have the same drone damage as someone who did pre-patch.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2014-05-16 19:50:15 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is why people who currently have the advantage should be given the SP from the now defunct CDO skill to apply elsewhere.

the change isn't to maintain advantage, it's to maintain what abilities you have. the cdo skill increases drone damage of light and medium drones. you will recieve two skills, one of which increases light drone damage, and one of which increases medium drone damage.

when you chose to train cdo, you were told you'd get 25% drone damage for 512,000 sp. thanks to ccp's skill replacement policy, that ability is guaranteed to you. you will never have to spend more sp to keep what you have.

that's the entire point of the change. if some people think they're losing advantage over someone else, that's their own problem.

i'll be flying my command ship, which i can still fly, instead of worrying about who else can fly iteron fives, which i can also still fly.


Refunding skill points does remove the ability to maintain abilities. It's not about maintaining abilities, it's about the free bump in SP that a character gets when they haven't put the time into the training.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#540 - 2014-05-16 19:50:19 UTC
you're entitled to receive the full effect of every skill you train for. if the skill is replaced with another, you receive the new one. which is what ccp is doing, for everybody.

as in the past, where characters have receieved the battlecruiser and destroyer skills for every race. where characters can still fly orcas, command ships and capitals without having the prerequisites anymore.

everyone receiving the new skills did train for them, by having cdo or sdo. they trained for the ability to fly drones or increased drone damage. ccp sees the need to rebalance the skills and in doing so is ensuring everyone can still do what they trained to do.

for fairness.