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Is the Nightmare getting a dps Buff?

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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#21 - 2014-05-14 17:49:07 UTC
how is a paladin "meant" for range, it runs the same tach setup as a NM and while it loses out on a ship tracking bonus it gets the free midslots to, at least partially, make up for that.

TD is ALWAYS an issue, unless the target you shoot at has no transversal and is still within optimal.

NM and pally operate pretty much the same; they're best at 20-80km, anything beyond 80 and you drop applied dps. The pally is cheaper and easier to tank, less of a target, can dual prop with AB and mjd, gets tractor bonus.

Honestly, it's not even a contest.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-05-14 17:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Paladin get a bonus to range.
Nightmare get a bonus to tracking.

Also Have a look at Bastion Module I.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#23 - 2014-05-14 23:44:38 UTC
just because it gets a range bonus doesn't mean it should sit at 100km not using MF or being out of optimal.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#24 - 2014-05-15 02:39:59 UTC
Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.

Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#25 - 2014-05-15 07:11:38 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.

Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin.


While it certainly makes sense to go pulse as you can dual prop the pala with AB and MJD (so range is never an issue) it's not necessarily logical. Pulses are fine when you're dealing with EM weak targets but absolutely horrendous when you're shooting EM tanked targets at range because the longer range crystal you use the less thermal you do (Scorch is ~80% EM).

And thus the recurring logic for mission laser boats is that since pulses are only logical to use against EM weak stuff and since beams are so close in dps (compared to other long range turret types the dps is quite good) you might as well treat beams as the #1 fitting and pulses as the exception.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-05-15 08:35:48 UTC
I've found Tachyon/MJD dualprop Paladin to be more effective than Pulse/MWD.
I suspect that is because of Scorch doing mostly EM damage.
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
#27 - 2014-05-15 08:37:05 UTC
Use your MJD to jump to enemies. Your tank should be big enough in a paladin. I often put a web in one of my mids, to compensate for poor conflag tracking. It just melts faces(ships(faces in ships)). Lol

The only big point of the nightmare in my eyes is the afterburner bonus. If you want a fast mobile tach platform use it. I would stick with the paladin for everything else. Amarr BS5 assumed.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#28 - 2014-05-15 10:29:32 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.

Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin.


While it certainly makes sense to go pulse as you can dual prop the pala with AB and MJD (so range is never an issue) it's not necessarily logical. Pulses are fine when you're dealing with EM weak targets but absolutely horrendous when you're shooting EM tanked targets at range because the longer range crystal you use the less thermal you do (Scorch is ~80% EM).

And thus the recurring logic for mission laser boats is that since pulses are only logical to use against EM weak stuff and since beams are so close in dps (compared to other long range turret types the dps is quite good) you might as well treat beams as the #1 fitting and pulses as the exception.



Don't do Angel missions in a Paladin?

My Paladin is for EM weak missions.
My Golem or Tengu is for everything non-em weak.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#29 - 2014-05-15 11:18:19 UTC
Guristas say hello.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-05-15 11:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Posted in wrong thread.... Deleted
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-05-15 12:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Last Wolf wrote:
Or do what I do. ~1300dps Pulse fit at 35km optimal with conflag. I still get over 900 dps at 96km with scorch.

Tachs are for NM, Pulse are for Paladin.



These numbers are for a Paladin in case anyone is confused

I use a Tachyon Beam setup because it makes more sense for how I play. If you like the close in fighting perhaps the Mega Pulse is better for you.

From these numbers the advantage Mega Pulse lasers get is using Conflagration within 33 km with an extra 188 DPS. So for those that use it close up Mega Pulse would make sense. This is if you don't use 3 heat sinks instead of 4 to buff up your close in tank. If you do that you only get an extra 133 DPS.

For those using Mega Pulse lasers at range with Scorch you lose DPS. Even using a MJD to keep range I'm shooting at rats within 70 km most of the time. If I was using Scorch I would lose 163 DPS.


Here are the DPS numbers. All setups are 4 IN heat sinks, 1 T2 Energy Burst Aerator rig and 3 T2 TC with optimal range scrips. Basicly max DPS + max range


Mega Pulse
Conflagration 1228 DPS @ 33 + 21
Scorch 877 DPS @ 99 + 21
IN Radio 458 DPS @ 106 + 21

Tachyon Beam
IN MF 1040 DPS @ 73 + 51
IN Gamma 953 DPS @ 91 + 51
IN Xray 867 DPS @ 109 + 51


Edit: Replacing the 4th IN Heat Sink with T2 will reduce these numbers by 3-8 DPS. Something to think about if you're worried about being ganked... Is 8 DPS worth 100 mil ISK?


Edit 2.. I need coffee...
Darvanile
Access--Denied
#32 - 2014-05-15 12:39:08 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing.

debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons.


No, it's not debatable.

better use of a MJD
more range
better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments
less slots wasted on tank
immune to ewar
cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target
more cargo room
more tractor range


Just to counter some of your points

better use of a MJD
Of course the Paladin gets better use of a MJD... The Nightmare doesn't need one since it doesn't perform it's best at 100km. The NM will get better use of an AB.

more range
Again the NM is for closer ranges than the Paladin

better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments
less slots wasted on tank
Less tank slots I can't argue with but I disagree with the "better tank". The Paladin can have a better tank than the NM. A properly fit mission Paladin doesn't have a better tank since it's meant for range. My Paladin only has a LAR, EANM and DC. Also the Nightmare can warp away if you're being overwhelmed. With those "Oh crap" moments in a Paladin you have to disengage Bastion and hope to god your complete lack of a tank in the time it takes you to align and warp works. Been there, done that and made it out in hull. Of course both have more than adequate tank and the only time you would have an issue is pilot error.

immune to ewar
I've only had one mission where EWAR was an issue in Amarr space. I can't think of the name but it was heavy TD. With other missions it was just simply take out the EWAR ships before they moved in range. Now if the Nightmare isn't properly fit or the pilot doesn't have sufficient skills to make the DPS low this can be an issue.

cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target
more cargo room
Can't argue with those since shield modules can be expensive. I will say I've never lost a Nightmare in highsec but that's because I'm careful.

more tractor range
I stay at 70 to 100km out in my Paladin so I only use the tractor beam to scoop the mission item. If you use it to loot this is a good thing.


I won't argue that the Paladin puts out more applied DPS than the NM since you can blast things at range. This translates to more ISK per hour. You have to remember not everyone cares about always getting max ISK per hour. I for one plan to try a in your face Mega Pulse NM once the changes happen. With the AB bonus I bet it would be fun.


It honestly seems like your letting your love for the nightmare get the best of you here. Tracking for a paladin in missions should honestly never be an issue, this is easily fixed by tracking comps. The paladin is incredibly hard to not make cap stable for missions as well. But the biggest point of all here is bastion mode. With the paladin, there is never going to be an oh **** moment. The insane amount of rep power this ship produces is off the charts. This is a ship capable of soloing c5 sites. Hitting ranges of 120km with scorch, and near 40 with conflag. The NM isn't even in the same ball park as the paladin, or any marauder for that matter. The paladin is also a much longer skill train though, so realistically this fits.
Treacle Fox
Standards Contracting
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2014-05-16 09:07:37 UTC
Does anyone have an estimation of how fast a nightmare with a gist-x 100mn afterburner will go with max skills after the changes happen?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#34 - 2014-05-16 09:38:06 UTC
Treacle Fox wrote:
Does anyone have an estimation of how fast a nightmare with a gist-x 100mn afterburner will go with max skills after the changes happen?


867m/s not counting any nanofibers, rigs or implants.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-05-16 11:22:20 UTC
Darvanile wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The real question is; why would anyone care how well a nightmare does in missions, because the Paladin is so much better given the fact that, on top of its other good points, is immune to TDing.

debatable. also, some people prefer shield tanks for various reasons.


No, it's not debatable.

better use of a MJD
more range
better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments
less slots wasted on tank
immune to ewar
cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target
more cargo room
more tractor range


Just to counter some of your points

better use of a MJD
Of course the Paladin gets better use of a MJD... The Nightmare doesn't need one since it doesn't perform it's best at 100km. The NM will get better use of an AB.

more range
Again the NM is for closer ranges than the Paladin

better tank, especially in "oh ****" moments
less slots wasted on tank
Less tank slots I can't argue with but I disagree with the "better tank". The Paladin can have a better tank than the NM. A properly fit mission Paladin doesn't have a better tank since it's meant for range. My Paladin only has a LAR, EANM and DC. Also the Nightmare can warp away if you're being overwhelmed. With those "Oh crap" moments in a Paladin you have to disengage Bastion and hope to god your complete lack of a tank in the time it takes you to align and warp works. Been there, done that and made it out in hull. Of course both have more than adequate tank and the only time you would have an issue is pilot error.

immune to ewar
I've only had one mission where EWAR was an issue in Amarr space. I can't think of the name but it was heavy TD. With other missions it was just simply take out the EWAR ships before they moved in range. Now if the Nightmare isn't properly fit or the pilot doesn't have sufficient skills to make the DPS low this can be an issue.

cheaper fit while having more EHP, thus less of a gank target
more cargo room
Can't argue with those since shield modules can be expensive. I will say I've never lost a Nightmare in highsec but that's because I'm careful.

more tractor range
I stay at 70 to 100km out in my Paladin so I only use the tractor beam to scoop the mission item. If you use it to loot this is a good thing.


I won't argue that the Paladin puts out more applied DPS than the NM since you can blast things at range. This translates to more ISK per hour. You have to remember not everyone cares about always getting max ISK per hour. I for one plan to try a in your face Mega Pulse NM once the changes happen. With the AB bonus I bet it would be fun.


It honestly seems like your letting your love for the nightmare get the best of you here. Tracking for a paladin in missions should honestly never be an issue, this is easily fixed by tracking comps. The paladin is incredibly hard to not make cap stable for missions as well. But the biggest point of all here is bastion mode. With the paladin, there is never going to be an oh **** moment. The insane amount of rep power this ship produces is off the charts. This is a ship capable of soloing c5 sites. Hitting ranges of 120km with scorch, and near 40 with conflag. The NM isn't even in the same ball park as the paladin, or any marauder for that matter. The paladin is also a much longer skill train though, so realistically this fits.


Did you read the part where I said the Paladin can have a better tank but if it's fitted to efficiently run missions it doesn't have a better tank? Yes you can probably fit a Paladin to be able to solo tank the entire Goonswarm capital fleet. If you're using a cap stable fit capable of taking a C5 wormhole I'm happy for you but you're losing DPS. When I was comparing the two I was using a mission fit for max DPS and range.

Also did you read the part where I said the Paladin puts out more applied DPS? I won't argue the Paladin is a superior mission ship for grinding through missions. My point was the Nightmare is still a decent choice if fitted properly.


Darvanile
Access--Denied
#36 - 2014-05-16 13:18:39 UTC
I did not misread or not read what you said, I wouldn't have taken the time to reply otherwise. Yes, the nightmare is a fine ship for missions/incursions. However, properly fit for missions or not, the paladin still out tanks the nightmare. With bastion and Marauders 5 , hell even 4, your looking at 145% bonus to repping power. 1 rep, 2 eanms,1 bastion module, 4 heatsinks, its a very simple equation that the nightmare can never and will never match. I suppose you could go with a 5th heatsink... but the difference in dps is laughable. I am not shooting the nightmare as a pve vessel down in the least. It is still very high on the list of mission runners and a fantastic ship.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-05-16 14:59:46 UTC
Yeah I was agreeing with you that the Paladin was superior for getting DPS on target and completing missions. Me selling my Nightmare because I didn't use it anymore would attest to that.

It just doesn't seem like the tank on the Paladin is superior. I've miscalculated a jump, took full room aggro and my armor was slowly going down even in Bastion mode. I had to disengage Bastion, wait for the cycle to end and warp out. What's worse is while Bastion is disengaged and I'm aligning the repper was doing practically nothing.

My old Nightmare could hold full room aggro at point blank range long as I have cap charges for the cap booster. That's with 2 tracking computers fitted in the mids.

On my Paladin I have 1 DC, and a EANM for tank. DPS is 4 heat sinks and a T2 ROF rig. A 5th heat sink would be worthless but the ROF rig actually helps. Damage projection by 3 tracking computers.

Yes I could make a cap stable setup that would permatank anything at the cost of damage projection but why? Unless I mess up I rarely cycle the repper more than three times. Many missions don't even get through my shields. If I DC it's going to die either way since all modules turn off and it stays there.


Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#38 - 2014-05-16 15:58:41 UTC
Being able to tank silly amounts is not a requirement for running lvl 4 efficiently so any anecdotal "evidence" is pretty much meaningless. a Pally can tank some 900 Omni with a DC/EANM and a decent repper, if that's not enough for a lvl 4 then don't blame the ship.

Then onto the next bit, the pally is already inching ahead in regards to turret stats (range is obvious, tracking less so but you can fit a bunch of tracking comps kinda making up for it) but the SECOND the Nightmare gets TDed by even just one NPC it's completely and utterly blown out of the water by the Pally, which is immune to TDing, making it a non-contest.

End of story, case closed, why are we still arguing over this.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2014-05-16 17:34:32 UTC
Nightmare looks over 9000 more awesomer than the Paladin.

The AB bonus is actually super useful for countering tracking disruption.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-05-16 17:45:54 UTC
As I figure it... the Nightmare is for incursioning, the Paladin is for missioning, neither one is for PvP

It will stay this way post patch
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