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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#501 - 2014-05-16 16:50:24 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
a devblog provided incomplete information. a devpost corrected the info, but some people who were training skills for advantage feel they're hard done by. they're still gaining both skills. they're still gaining training time. but they feel that because someone else might be getting more "free" sp than they get, they deserve more too.


No they don't. CCP is doing this because they have to enforce their "If you could fly it/use it before, you will still be able to after the change" policy.

yep, that's the thread.

Quote:
You no longer have this advantage against that player.

the goal of the replacement isn't to maintain advantage.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#502 - 2014-05-16 16:50:43 UTC
Marsha, nobody said anything about a major advantage, and nobody said SP were the sole defining factor. But they are a factor, and people pay directly for it. What everyone pays for the same thing should be equal and deterministic. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.

Estella, you give the impression of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position in this thread.
Marsha Mallow
#503 - 2014-05-16 16:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Sibyyl wrote:
This is probably a separate topic, but this SP efficiency metric really just exists because of the (sometimes inane) way we gain skills in EVE. If I had a choice, Sibyyl would know how to do everything instead of dividing it up between her and an alt. The thing is, I really do want to experience different aspects of the game as quickly as possible instead of having to wait twice as long.

Ideally though, I'd just have one pilot who's able to go PVP in null, go make some ISK, gank miners, do industry jobs, etc. etc. I'd rather just have one friend list, one set of notes, one collection of fits, and only one persona in EVE to manage. I think some older subcap pilots who've chosen to round themselves out (instead of pursuing caps) have this advantage.

Skilltraining is a pain in some ways, but it's an area we can define our game/playstyle independently. A lot of us mess up early on, either training things we abandon, wasting remaps, or just trying to do too much at once.

For newer players I'd always recommend focus train your main so you can make ISK efficiently (but ideally not Caldari because it's a poor race overall for PVP), then start seriously looking at alts before you crosstrain. You can have a solid subcap character with 30m SP - which isn't all that long. Racial cross training is useful, but people tend to do them all at once, so it's a 90m skillplan which is horrendous to contemplate early on.

I trade characters, and tbh the 90-160m sp is a minefield because so many are horriably unfocused and not particularly good at anything. MCT is really handy for low SP alts, you really don't need much above 15m for Miners/Explo/Indy/JF/Trade. Less than 5 for Cynos/Research/Manu/Freighter alts most of the time. My highest SP alts are far, far worse than my lowest in that they can do loads - not all that well.

Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Sure, the possibility for a 6 month character to out maneuver a 10 year vet isn't in question. But that's not what we're talking about. If you take a player, clone him and put him in both characters, what do you think the outcome would be then? You're unbalancing the equation by using differing variables for you comparison. It's not about the human skill level, it's about the advantage another character gets relative to the time invested.

You persistently miss the point I am making. Time invested into passive SP acquisition does not give a greater advantage than time invested into playing the game and acquiring an advantage through awareness. It's entirely about the human skill level. All of those examples I suggested can be flipped around using someone who simply bought a character off the bazaar then went up against either the 6 month old player or the vet.

It's not an 'equation' it's a point of view. You are welcome to consider that your SP advantages make you a better player than others, and welcome to whine at CCP to ensure that distinction is preserved. Just don't be surprised when others point out the flaws in that perspective.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2014-05-16 16:54:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

the goal of the replacement isn't to maintain advantage.


Well, it should be the goal, and for obvious reasons if you think about it a little bit more. If you're confused I would suggest reading the other arguments in this thread that directly counter your point.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#505 - 2014-05-16 16:55:50 UTC

Quote:
Well, it should be the goal


tough. it's not.
Mario Putzo
#506 - 2014-05-16 16:56:46 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
I edited it. Trying to do 5 things at once.

Basically, if anything, people will be getting free skill points. They take out one skill, but replace it with 2. What is the problem?

a devblog provided incomplete information. a devpost corrected the info, but some people who were training skills for advantage feel they're hard done by. they're still gaining both skills. they're still gaining training time. but they feel that because someone else might be getting more "free" sp than they get, they deserve more too.


No they don't. CCP is doing this because they have to enforce their "If you could fly it/use it before, you will still be able to after the change" policy. Since you only needed SDO to fly medium and lights, they have to give you LDO and MDO based on that skill.

So 1 skill goes away, but 2 are added. Training CDO is not a loss. I have it to 5. Why did I train it? Because it gave my drones better damage, that's why.



All you need is SDO at 5 and you will get all 3 of the new skills at 5, CDO is being effectively removed from the game and not replaced and thus should be reimbursed as all skills that have been removed from the game have been in the past.

If CCP doesn't want to hand out new skills than they need to change their approach from SDO 5 counting for everything to SDO counting only to Drone Size skills, and CDO becoming the marker for the third new skill (Avionics?) But that is not what CCP intends to do.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#507 - 2014-05-16 17:01:46 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Marsha, nobody said anything about a major advantage, and nobody said SP were the sole defining factor. But they are a factor, and people pay directly for it. What everyone pays for the same thing should be equal and deterministic. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.

Estella, you give the impression of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position in this thread.


I don't have to. This is the same tired argument that was had when CCP added racial BC and Destroyer skills. People raged over that and now they are raging over this. Why are they raging? Because they tried to scam the system to get free SP and it didn't work. Boo hoo.

As for my drones losing damage because the skill is going away, CCP is increasing the damge on T1 drones to compensate, and T2 drones will have some changes as well to bring drones more inline with proper balancing.

I don't like that my T2 drones will do less damage, but I am not going to whine about it. Only people who whine about changes are the ones who fly one trick ponies, and can't be bothered to try different play-styles in the game.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#508 - 2014-05-16 17:02:25 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

Quote:
Well, it should be the goal


tough. it's not.


lol I am not at all surprised by your response

How do you know it's not CCPs goal? CCP reimbursed learning skills, was that not to maintain advantage those players had?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#509 - 2014-05-16 17:07:59 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
This is the same tired argument that was had when CCP added racial BC and Destroyer skills.

it's the same as when orca prereqs were changed and when itty v prereqs were changed as well. people raging that other players could gain the ship faster than they had.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#510 - 2014-05-16 17:08:51 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
Marsha, nobody said anything about a major advantage, and nobody said SP were the sole defining factor. But they are a factor, and people pay directly for it. What everyone pays for the same thing should be equal and deterministic. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.

Estella, you give the impression of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position in this thread.


I don't have to. This is the same tired argument that was had when CCP added racial BC and Destroyer skills. People raged over that and now they are raging over this. Why are they raging? Because they tried to scam the system to get free SP and it didn't work. Boo hoo.

As for my drones losing damage because the skill is going away, CCP is increasing the damge on T1 drones to compensate, and T2 drones will have some changes as well to bring drones more inline with proper balancing.

I don't like that my T2 drones will do less damage, but I am not going to whine about it. Only people who whine about changes are the ones who fly one trick ponies, and can't be bothered to try different play-styles in the game.


Estella, if you won't read the existing arguments against your position then you just shouldn't bother posting. It just wastes everyone's time. Nobody rages because they don't get free SP. They rage because they are not being treated equally.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#511 - 2014-05-16 17:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Benny Ohu wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
a devblog provided incomplete information. a devpost corrected the info, but some people who were training skills for advantage feel they're hard done by. they're still gaining both skills. they're still gaining training time. but they feel that because someone else might be getting more "free" sp than they get, they deserve more too.


No they don't. CCP is doing this because they have to enforce their "If you could fly it/use it before, you will still be able to after the change" policy.

yep, that's the thread.

Quote:
You no longer have this advantage against that player.

the goal of the replacement isn't to maintain advantage.


I agree. But it is one of the goals of training you're character. You wouldn't train a character past level 1 if you weren't looking to get an advantage in the next PVP encounter. I could say that the goal of training is not to lose your advantage to advancement. But it doesn't make sense and comparing the 2 in this fashion isn't a way to justify the trumping of the other.
Marsha Mallow
#512 - 2014-05-16 17:10:37 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
We don't pay plex/sub to acquire SP and treat it as the core purpose of the game [...]

Then why does dual character training exist? Granted, it's not the *only* use of PLEX, but it is at least an important part of what we pay for.

MCT exists to train alts, but it switches off if your main character isn't 'subbed'. Because the primary mechanic for subbing, is to play the game.
Gavin Dax wrote:
Marsha, nobody said anything about a major advantage, and nobody said SP were the sole defining factor. But they are a factor, and people pay directly for it. What everyone pays for the same thing should be equal and deterministic. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.
Estella, you give the impression of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position in this thread.

Clearly Gavin, you think this piddly 512k sp is significant, and worth squawking about over 20+ pages utilising the time honoured "But, It's not faaaair" stance. Sadly all of the people who support your position seem to have some skewed definition of Money=Time=Advantage=Entitlement, and are blatantly demonstrating that higher SP players can indeed be quite foolish.

Estella doesn't need to read the entire thread because the bleating is apparent in the last couple of pages.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#513 - 2014-05-16 17:14:51 UTC
Quote:
CCP reimbursed learning skills, was that not to maintain advantage those players had?

no. it was to ensure that sp were not wasted.

you will recieve skills to ensure that you can use all drones with the same degree of competence as you could before. your skillpoints have not been wasted.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#514 - 2014-05-16 17:16:52 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
They rage because they are not being treated equally.

everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#515 - 2014-05-16 17:18:13 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
This is probably a separate topic, but this SP efficiency metric really just exists because of the (sometimes inane) way we gain skills in EVE. If I had a choice, Sibyyl would know how to do everything instead of dividing it up between her and an alt. The thing is, I really do want to experience different aspects of the game as quickly as possible instead of having to wait twice as long.

Ideally though, I'd just have one pilot who's able to go PVP in null, go make some ISK, gank miners, do industry jobs, etc. etc. I'd rather just have one friend list, one set of notes, one collection of fits, and only one persona in EVE to manage. I think some older subcap pilots who've chosen to round themselves out (instead of pursuing caps) have this advantage.

Skilltraining is a pain in some ways, but it's an area we can define our game/playstyle independently. A lot of us mess up early on, either training things we abandon, wasting remaps, or just trying to do too much at once.

For newer players I'd always recommend focus train your main so you can make ISK efficiently (but ideally not Caldari because it's a poor race overall for PVP), then start seriously looking at alts before you crosstrain. You can have a solid subcap character with 30m SP - which isn't all that long. Racial cross training is useful, but people tend to do them all at once, so it's a 90m skillplan which is horrendous to contemplate early on.

I trade characters, and tbh the 90-160m sp is a minefield because so many are horriably unfocused and not particularly good at anything. MCT is really handy for low SP alts, you really don't need much above 15m for Miners/Explo/Indy/JF/Trade. Less than 5 for Cynos/Research/Manu/Freighter alts most of the time. My highest SP alts are far, far worse than my lowest in that they can do loads - not all that well.

Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Sure, the possibility for a 6 month character to out maneuver a 10 year vet isn't in question. But that's not what we're talking about. If you take a player, clone him and put him in both characters, what do you think the outcome would be then? You're unbalancing the equation by using differing variables for you comparison. It's not about the human skill level, it's about the advantage another character gets relative to the time invested.

You persistently miss the point I am making. Time invested into passive SP acquisition does not give a greater advantage than time invested into playing the game and acquiring an advantage through awareness. It's entirely about the human skill level. All of those examples I suggested can be flipped around using someone who simply bought a character off the bazaar then went up against either the 6 month old player or the vet.

It's not an 'equation' it's a point of view. You are welcome to consider that your SP advantages make you a better player than others, and welcome to whine at CCP to ensure that distinction is preserved. Just don't be surprised when others point out the flaws in that perspective.


Again there are 2 variables at play. The human skill variable and the character skill variable. Specifically I'm talking about the character skill level. This is a measurable value via skill points and if you forgo that in lieu of human skills then you're losing focus of what's being changed here. It's not 2 humans having their skill levels changed, it's 2 characters each with differing times of training who are getting the same benefit.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#516 - 2014-05-16 17:20:19 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
Marsha, nobody said anything about a major advantage, and nobody said SP were the sole defining factor. But they are a factor, and people pay directly for it. What everyone pays for the same thing should be equal and deterministic. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.

Estella, you give the impression of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position in this thread.


I don't have to. This is the same tired argument that was had when CCP added racial BC and Destroyer skills. People raged over that and now they are raging over this. Why are they raging? Because they tried to scam the system to get free SP and it didn't work. Boo hoo.

As for my drones losing damage because the skill is going away, CCP is increasing the damge on T1 drones to compensate, and T2 drones will have some changes as well to bring drones more inline with proper balancing.

I don't like that my T2 drones will do less damage, but I am not going to whine about it. Only people who whine about changes are the ones who fly one trick ponies, and can't be bothered to try different play-styles in the game.


Estella, if you won't read the existing arguments against your position then you just shouldn't bother posting. It just wastes everyone's time. Nobody rages because they don't get free SP. They rage because they are not being treated equally.


You are being treated equally. This change is happening to everyone. It isn't happening to just new players. It isn't happening only to bittervets. The skill changes are happening to EVERYONE who plays the game.

People who rage about being treated equally, are usually the ones who ARE being treated equally.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#517 - 2014-05-16 17:23:58 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
Marsha, nobody said anything about a major advantage, and nobody said SP were the sole defining factor. But they are a factor, and people pay directly for it. What everyone pays for the same thing should be equal and deterministic. This is a good thing for obvious reasons.

Estella, you give the impression of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position in this thread.


I don't have to. This is the same tired argument that was had when CCP added racial BC and Destroyer skills. People raged over that and now they are raging over this. Why are they raging? Because they tried to scam the system to get free SP and it didn't work. Boo hoo.

As for my drones losing damage because the skill is going away, CCP is increasing the damge on T1 drones to compensate, and T2 drones will have some changes as well to bring drones more inline with proper balancing.

I don't like that my T2 drones will do less damage, but I am not going to whine about it. Only people who whine about changes are the ones who fly one trick ponies, and can't be bothered to try different play-styles in the game.


People who discuss changes, offer ideas and try to change other peoples minds are a resource that's sorely needed everywhere. This forum is for discussion and because of it many a change has happened in eve. Thank heaven for the forums and the ability to voice our opinion as without it the game probably wouldn't be what it is today. I have a lot of respect for the Devs letting us post our points of view and the fact that they put up with less respectful posts.
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#518 - 2014-05-16 17:30:53 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
no. it was to ensure that sp were not wasted.

you will recieve skills to ensure that you can use all drones with the same degree of competence as you could before. your skillpoints have not been wasted.
I have both Combat drone operation 5 and Scout drone operation 5. My SP in CDO are wasted, as I could have put them in another skill and gotten Light drone operation and Medium drone operation for free, after the patch.

The drones of people with only SDO 5 will actually be better after the patch than before, because those people get Light drone operation 5 and Medium drone operation 5 for free.


Benny Ohu wrote:
everyone is being treated equally. every single character will be able to use every module with the same degree of proficiency as they could before downtime.
False! People with only SDO 5 will have better drones than before downtime.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#519 - 2014-05-16 17:45:32 UTC
Xasnevian wrote:
[People with only SDO 5 will have better drones than before downtime.

sure. i should have said 'at least the same proficiency'. everyone is still being treated equally, using the same policy of 'you never lose anything do to skill changes' that has existed for a long time. and is responsible for treating you and i fairly for every skill change before this that i can remember.

Quote:
My SP in CDO are wasted, as I could have put them in another skill and gotten Light drone operation and Medium drone operation for free, after the patch.

no. you receive the same ingame abilities ~or better~ as before the change. the replacement is not to give you skills for free. it is to ensure you don't lose anything. people trying to game the system don't get special treatment.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#520 - 2014-05-16 17:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gavin Dax
This is not just about SP. More importantly, I don't think it's a good thing for the game that people will feel cheated by CCP for having trained CDO V just because of the devblog or being told to by their corpmates (regardless of what you think re "it was their speculation" etc., they will not be happy with CCP). This is clearly bad for the game, there is a solution that avoids this with no obvious downsides, yet people feel the need for some reason to opposite it so vehemently.

Benny Ohu wrote:
no. it was to ensure that sp were not wasted.

you will receive skills to ensure that you can use all drones with the same degree of competence as you could before. your skillpoints have not been wasted.


Really? Everyone who had learning skills also could do everything that they could before. CCP reimbursed the SP to maintain their advantage. There really is no significant difference.