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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#481 - 2014-05-16 14:47:41 UTC
Maru Sha wrote:
That whole discussion would not happen, if CCP just continues to use the "unallocated skillpoints" approach.

Remove or split a current skill -> take the SP of the former skill, move them to the pool of unallocated SP and let the player decide where he/she wants to apply them (in the replacement skill / in one of the replacement skills / in a completely unrelated skill). Nobody would gain anything and nobody would lose anything in comparison to other players.

I asked for hat when the whole destroyer and command ship skill issue came up, but obviously the calls for tons of free SP were louder.


I like this suggestion. It's perhaps the best and most fair solution. Problem comes when CCP wants to ensure that people can use the same modules/systems that they could before the change. Would they be able to do that in this situation given your suggestion?
Marsha Mallow
#482 - 2014-05-16 15:04:31 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Dedicating 10d a pop on each toon sure felt like a waste of time to me, and don't forget, this is a subscription based game, so time is money. I feel like I wasted my training time on what amounts to an sp black hole when I could've been queing something else instead. I wasted my time training CDO 5 on 6x toons, so that's essentially like me wasting 2 months of subscription.

If you did that in response to info in the Devblog you might have a case you can present to a GM. Try a petition and see. I know there's an argument that speculating on skill changes pre-patch has inherent risks, but this hasn't been communicated well.

Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Time is also what helps illustrates the distinction between new and old players.

Older players who think they are 'better' because they have more SP are amongst the most deluded of the playerbase. Low SP characters can outperform high in various arenas. The distinction between a good and bad player has little to do with age (plenty of vets are dumb as rocks). If you haven't spotted the trend to ensure newer players have similar opportunities to vets you're really not understanding the skilltraining system anyway, which fundamentally operates on a system of diminishing returns.

We don't pay plex/sub to acquire SP and treat it as the core purpose of the game - it's not game with a 'levelling' system. We pay to access and play the game. If you monetise your training like this every change which affects skills is going to offend you, particularly if you perceive certain changes as devaluing your character in relation to others and wasting your money.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#483 - 2014-05-16 15:05:52 UTC
Since we're all insisting on everything being fair, can I ask that CCP refund my character a sum of ISK equal to the differential clone cost for having more SP than I did before simply with Scout Drone Operation V? I don't find this character really using medium drones and don't feel like it's fair for me to pay extra to upgrade my clone each time for SPs I didn't ask for.

I would like this ISK refund to factor in the total unnecessary costs I will incur over this pilot's lifetime.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#484 - 2014-05-16 15:12:41 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Dedicating 10d a pop on each toon sure felt like a waste of time to me, and don't forget, this is a subscription based game, so time is money. I feel like I wasted my training time on what amounts to an sp black hole when I could've been queing something else instead. I wasted my time training CDO 5 on 6x toons, so that's essentially like me wasting 2 months of subscription.


Another idea would be to give the CDO5 people extra time on the accounts equal to the time that the CDO5 skill took to trained. I realize that this isn't what a lot of people would like, but it is a compromise. There are no SP given, but at the same time there is recognition of the time spent to learn the skill.
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#485 - 2014-05-16 15:14:48 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Since we're all insisting on everything being fair, can I ask that CCP refund my character a sum of ISK equal to the differential clone cost for having more SP than I did before simply with Scout Drone Operation V? I don't find this character really using medium drones and don't feel like it's fair for me to pay extra to upgrade my clone each time for SPs I didn't ask for.

I would like this ISK refund to factor in the total unnecessary costs I will incur over this pilot's lifetime.

If you hate free SPs, you can always pod yourself in alpha clone.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#486 - 2014-05-16 15:22:01 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:

We don't pay plex/sub to acquire SP and treat it as the core purpose of the game [...]


Then why does dual character training exist? Granted, it's not the *only* use of PLEX, but it is at least an important part of what we pay for.

A more fair way to make this change is:
If (SDO level >= CDO level)
Refund CDO
else
Refund SDO

Maru Sha wrote:
I think that promise of CCP is silly anyway. If the skill is so important said person can train for it like anybody else did before and everybody else (new pilot) has to do so in the future

+1, but this will never happen. CCP has already set a precedent that existing pilots should be immune to training time nerfs. There are ways to do this without removing the old skills until everyone has had a chance to train the new ones, so they don't lose any ability when the patch is implemented. But as I said I just don't see it happening.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#487 - 2014-05-16 15:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Dedicating 10d a pop on each toon sure felt like a waste of time to me, and don't forget, this is a subscription based game, so time is money. I feel like I wasted my training time on what amounts to an sp black hole when I could've been queing something else instead. I wasted my time training CDO 5 on 6x toons, so that's essentially like me wasting 2 months of subscription.

If you did that in response to info in the Devblog you might have a case you can present to a GM. Try a petition and see. I know there's an argument that speculating on skill changes pre-patch has inherent risks, but this hasn't been communicated well.

Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Time is also what helps illustrates the distinction between new and old players.

Older players who think they are 'better' because they have more SP are amongst the most deluded of the playerbase. Low SP characters can outperform high in various arenas. The distinction between a good and bad player has little to do with age (plenty of vets are dumb as rocks). If you haven't spotted the trend to ensure newer players have similar opportunities to vets you're really not understanding the skilltraining system anyway, which fundamentally operates on a system of diminishing returns.

We don't pay plex/sub to acquire SP and treat it as the core purpose of the game - it's not game with a 'levelling' system. We pay to access and play the game. If you monetise your training like this every change which affects skills is going to offend you, particularly if you perceive certain changes as devaluing your character in relation to others and wasting your money.


Of course you want to acquire SP in the game, it's one of the defining factors for your character. I didn't say it was the defining factor, but it's one of the reasons why the character bazaar exists. It's one of the reasons we train and spend time pondering which skills to put in the queue. SP indirectly represent how much skill your character has - notice I didn't say you.

Your skills and your characters skills differ and how you use a character vs. how another person uses a character could be entirely different. Many times I've went to the bazaar because I want a character with different or more skill points, and in general higher SP characters bring a higher buck. Because of the way eve is setup, we need SP in order to use bigger and better ships, modules, etc... and even though there are diminishing returns, we still train the skill because we're looking to get an advantage for instance when a PVP action happens. Otherwise no one would train beyond level 1 for a skill.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2014-05-16 15:55:49 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:
If you hate free SPs, you can always pod yourself in alpha clone.

It takes less effort than that for you to queue up a skill for 3-7 days for the SPs you've been whining about in this thread.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#489 - 2014-05-16 15:56:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Estella Osoka
WTF is everyone on about? So someone has bad reading skills and misinterpreted what a dev said.

SDO is being replace by Drone Avionics
CDO is being replaced by Medium Drone Operation and Light Drone Operation.

It is that simple. If you have level 5 in CDO, then LDO and MDO will be 5.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2014-05-16 16:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Estella Osoka wrote:
WTF is everyone on about? So someone has bad reading skills and misinterpreted what a dev said.

SDO is being replace by Light Drone Operation
CDO is being replaced by Medium Drone Operation

It is that simple. If you have level 5 in SDO and CDO, then LDO and MDO will be 5.

I think that before criticizing reading skills of others you should catch up on the changes and educate yourself on the changes. What you've said here is incorrect.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#491 - 2014-05-16 16:06:40 UTC
I edited it. Trying to do 5 things at once.

Basically, if anything, people will be getting free skill points. They take out one skill, but replace it with 2. What is the problem?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#492 - 2014-05-16 16:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
The problem is that SDO 5 will grant Light and Medium Drone Ops 5. This means the people who took CDO 5 will gain no additional benefit.

However, the people who took CDO 5 will not actually be losing SPs. They will gain a small number of them.

The primary concern is that the people who took CDO 5 will not get as many free SPs as the people who just took SDO 5.

Yeah, the whining sounds pretty ridiculous to me too.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#493 - 2014-05-16 16:11:28 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
I edited it. Trying to do 5 things at once.

Basically, if anything, people will be getting free skill points. They take out one skill, but replace it with 2. What is the problem?

a devblog provided incomplete information. a devpost corrected the info, but some people who were training skills for advantage feel they're hard done by. they're still gaining both skills. they're still gaining training time. but they feel that because someone else might be getting more "free" sp than they get, they deserve more too.
Marsha Mallow
#494 - 2014-05-16 16:12:33 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Of course you want to acquire SP in the game, it's one of the defining factors for your character. I didn't say it was the defining factor, but it's one of the reasons why the character bazaar exists. It's one of the reasons we train and spend time pondering which skills to put in the queue. SP indirectly represent how much skill your character has - notice I didn't say you.

Your skills and your characters skills differ and how you use a character vs. how another person uses a character could be entirely different. Many times I've went to the bazaar because I want a character with different or more skill points, and in general higher SP characters bring a higher buck. Because of the way eve is setup, we need SP in order to use bigger and better ships, modules, etc... and even though there are diminishing returns, we still train the skill because we're looking to get an advantage for instance when a PVP action happens. Otherwise no one would train beyond level 1 for a skill.


This reminds me a lot of those who complain they are disadvantaged against older players with high SP and can't possibly compete. Skillpoints do not reflect the ability of the player. The last 2-5% on level 5 skills can be plugged with implants, better mods/ships, drugs - but more importantly player skill, awareness, knowledge and experience.

Put a 2003 vet who has done nothing but mine (but who has acquired loads of SP in the meantime) into a rifter up against an RVB/E-Uni/BNI 6 month old player who has PVP'd consistently for months, who wins? Get a newbie trader who has worked their way up to 10b ISK, doesn't have maxed skills/standings, set them against an older player who has the skills/standings to reduce tax/broker fees and maximise their orders but has no market knowledge. Both have 10b ISK - which of them is going to make the most money?

Focused, low SP characters are worth more ISK per SP than high level characters with mixed training. SP directly represents how much skill your character has - it literally is a count of skills. It doesn't represent the person behind the character or whether they have any meaningful advantage over anyone else. This supposed 'advantage' and 'investment' people think they are losing here indicates a disconnect with reality, both in suggesting that subs only equal SP (and not playtime) and that SP gives them a major advantage over other people.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#495 - 2014-05-16 16:22:24 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Focused, low SP characters are worth more ISK per SP than high level characters with mixed training.

This is probably a separate topic, but this SP efficiency metric really just exists because of the (sometimes inane) way we gain skills in EVE. If I had a choice, Sibyyl would know how to do everything instead of dividing it up between her and an alt. The thing is, I really do want to experience different aspects of the game as quickly as possible instead of having to wait twice as long.

Ideally though, I'd just have one pilot who's able to go PVP in null, go make some ISK, gank miners, do industry jobs, etc. etc. I'd rather just have one friend list, one set of notes, one collection of fits, and only one persona in EVE to manage. I think some older subcap pilots who've chosen to round themselves out (instead of pursuing caps) have this advantage.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#496 - 2014-05-16 16:32:10 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Of course you want to acquire SP in the game, it's one of the defining factors for your character. I didn't say it was the defining factor, but it's one of the reasons why the character bazaar exists. It's one of the reasons we train and spend time pondering which skills to put in the queue. SP indirectly represent how much skill your character has - notice I didn't say you.

Your skills and your characters skills differ and how you use a character vs. how another person uses a character could be entirely different. Many times I've went to the bazaar because I want a character with different or more skill points, and in general higher SP characters bring a higher buck. Because of the way eve is setup, we need SP in order to use bigger and better ships, modules, etc... and even though there are diminishing returns, we still train the skill because we're looking to get an advantage for instance when a PVP action happens. Otherwise no one would train beyond level 1 for a skill.


This reminds me a lot of those who complain they are disadvantaged against older players with high SP and can't possibly compete. Skillpoints do not reflect the ability of the player. The last 2-5% on level 5 skills can be plugged with implants, better mods/ships, drugs - but more importantly player skill, awareness, knowledge and experience.

Put a 2003 vet who has done nothing but mine (but who has acquired loads of SP in the meantime) into a rifter up against an RVB/E-Uni/BNI 6 month old player who has PVP'd consistently for months, who wins? Get a newbie trader who has worked their way up to 10b ISK, doesn't have maxed skills/standings, set them against an older player who has the skills/standings to reduce tax/broker fees and maximise their orders but has no market knowledge. Both have 10b ISK - which of them is going to make the most money?

Focused, low SP characters are worth more ISK per SP than high level characters with mixed training. SP directly represents how much skill your character has - it literally is a count of skills. It doesn't represent the person behind the character or whether they have any meaningful advantage over anyone else. This supposed 'advantage' and 'investment' people think they are losing here indicates a disconnect with reality, both in suggesting that subs only equal SP (and not playtime) and that SP gives them a major advantage over other people.


Sure, the possibility for a 6 month character to out maneuver a 10 year vet isn't in question. But that's not what we're talking about. If you take a player, clone him and put him in both characters, what do you think the outcome would be then? You're unbalancing the equation by using differing variables for you comparison. It's not about the human skill level, it's about the advantage another character gets relative to the time invested.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#497 - 2014-05-16 16:37:36 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Of course you want to acquire SP in the game, it's one of the defining factors for your character. I didn't say it was the defining factor, but it's one of the reasons why the character bazaar exists. It's one of the reasons we train and spend time pondering which skills to put in the queue. SP indirectly represent how much skill your character has - notice I didn't say you.

Your skills and your characters skills differ and how you use a character vs. how another person uses a character could be entirely different. Many times I've went to the bazaar because I want a character with different or more skill points, and in general higher SP characters bring a higher buck. Because of the way eve is setup, we need SP in order to use bigger and better ships, modules, etc... and even though there are diminishing returns, we still train the skill because we're looking to get an advantage for instance when a PVP action happens. Otherwise no one would train beyond level 1 for a skill.


This reminds me a lot of those who complain they are disadvantaged against older players with high SP and can't possibly compete. Skillpoints do not reflect the ability of the player. The last 2-5% on level 5 skills can be plugged with implants, better mods/ships, drugs - but more importantly player skill, awareness, knowledge and experience.

Put a 2003 vet who has done nothing but mine (but who has acquired loads of SP in the meantime) into a rifter up against an RVB/E-Uni/BNI 6 month old player who has PVP'd consistently for months, who wins? Get a newbie trader who has worked their way up to 10b ISK, doesn't have maxed skills/standings, set them against an older player who has the skills/standings to reduce tax/broker fees and maximise their orders but has no market knowledge. Both have 10b ISK - which of them is going to make the most money?

Focused, low SP characters are worth more ISK per SP than high level characters with mixed training. SP directly represents how much skill your character has - it literally is a count of skills. It doesn't represent the person behind the character or whether they have any meaningful advantage over anyone else. This supposed 'advantage' and 'investment' people think they are losing here indicates a disconnect with reality, both in suggesting that subs only equal SP (and not playtime) and that SP gives them a major advantage over other people.


Sure, the possibility for a 6 month character to out maneuver a 10 year vet isn't in question. But that's not what we're talking about. If you take a player, clone him and put him in both characters, what do you think the outcome would be then? You're unbalancing the equation by using differing variables for you comparison. It's not about the human skill level, it's about the advantage another character gets relative to the time invested.


Let's take this and go deeper. Say you have your present self, a clay worker, and your past self from 3 years back, a starting clay worker.

You are both given the exact same clay, and are told to do the exact same thing with it.

Who do you think will have the best end product?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2014-05-16 16:39:40 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Focused, low SP characters are worth more ISK per SP than high level characters with mixed training.

This is probably a separate topic, but this SP efficiency metric really just exists because of the (sometimes inane) way we gain skills in EVE. If I had a choice, Sibyyl would know how to do everything instead of dividing it up between her and an alt. The thing is, I really do want to experience different aspects of the game as quickly as possible instead of having to wait twice as long.

Ideally though, I'd just have one pilot who's able to go PVP in null, go make some ISK, gank miners, do industry jobs, etc. etc. I'd rather just have one friend list, one set of notes, one collection of fits, and only one persona in EVE to manage. I think some older subcap pilots who've chosen to round themselves out (instead of pursuing caps) have this advantage.


Yes, and the focused SP only matters up to a certain point. Once a character passes that point, the amount of SP and not the focusing begins to take precedent where price is concerned. If you browse the bazaar you don't really see "focused" 175m SP characters. Typically these characters can fly almost all ships. As well, these characters tend toi fetch significantly more isk if compared to any focused character. I'm not sure where the line is for the SP threshold, but you can prove it to yourself if you look at the very high SP players.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#499 - 2014-05-16 16:40:03 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
I edited it. Trying to do 5 things at once.

Basically, if anything, people will be getting free skill points. They take out one skill, but replace it with 2. What is the problem?

a devblog provided incomplete information. a devpost corrected the info, but some people who were training skills for advantage feel they're hard done by. they're still gaining both skills. they're still gaining training time. but they feel that because someone else might be getting more "free" sp than they get, they deserve more too.


No they don't. CCP is doing this because they have to enforce their "If you could fly it/use it before, you will still be able to after the change" policy. Since you only needed SDO to fly medium and lights, they have to give you LDO and MDO based on that skill.

So 1 skill goes away, but 2 are added. Training CDO is not a loss. I have it to 5. Why did I train it? Because it gave my drones better damage, that's why.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2014-05-16 16:43:51 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
I edited it. Trying to do 5 things at once.

Basically, if anything, people will be getting free skill points. They take out one skill, but replace it with 2. What is the problem?

a devblog provided incomplete information. a devpost corrected the info, but some people who were training skills for advantage feel they're hard done by. they're still gaining both skills. they're still gaining training time. but they feel that because someone else might be getting more "free" sp than they get, they deserve more too.


No they don't. CCP is doing this because they have to enforce their "If you could fly it/use it before, you will still be able to after the change" policy. Since you only needed SDO to fly medium and lights, they have to give you LDO and MDO based on that skill.

So 1 skill goes away, but 2 are added. Training CDO is not a loss. I have it to 5. Why did I train it? Because it gave my drones better damage, that's why.


And because of the time you took to train it, it also gave you and advantage over another player who didn't train their character to CDO5. It gave you and advantage in PVP and PVE. You no longer have this advantage against that player.