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Clone swapping in W-space!!!

Author
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#41 - 2014-05-16 10:23:09 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Ryann Padecain wrote:

Oh I did and I agree with your general point I'm not saying you're wrong at all, just had to laugh at the extreme hypocrisy in your post, and wanted to give you some advice that you should take your own advice.

Anyway it could be a lost cause and that I am wasting my time, "Lel. I'm trying to figure out if I should go with the stock "LOL U MAD" response, or the "LOL YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO I AM OR WHAT I AM CAPABLE OF, JUST WAIT" response.

What do you think?" isn't really helping you Blink


As long as you understand what I'm saying there is no issue. It's irrelevant to me whether or not I appear a hypocrite, this is the wormhole forums, I do what I want.

And I enjoy it Cool

I think we can all agree that this forum is useless as a discussion medium for any relevant ideas simply because it's not read by the devs, or if it is read, it's not read seriously since all of the recent changes to wormholes specifically (I don't consider POS changes to be specific wormhole changes) indicate a very clear lack of understanding from CCP what wormholes actually are.

So it seems to me that the only other point in posting here is for fun or try to help nerds understand the error in their ways. That's what I do.


For somebody that PvPs so sparsely you sure have a big mouth but I doubt you can effectively outline errors in anybodies ways. Yes, of course, this is an alt and your main is the alpha dog of the W-space. Please, get a grip!
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#42 - 2014-05-16 10:37:39 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:


For somebody that PvPs so sparsely you sure have a big mouth but I doubt you can effectively outline errors in anybodies ways. Yes, of course, this is an alt and your main is the alpha dog of the W-space. Please, get a grip!


I too am super surprised when link alts have sparse PVP records.

I post on this character because I like the name a lot, totally unreasonable right? Lol.

I don't even know why you bother to make this argument, it's clear I'm an alt. It's clear I post with this character instead of the others because I like the name. I make no effort to try to hide my other characters, even a cursory check reveals them readily, as I remember even some guy made a whine thread somewhere about me stealing their **** and he posted a list of some of my characters.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-05-16 13:07:06 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:

Can we live w/o implants? Of course we can. Do we want to be artificially limited in that regard? Don't know about you but I don't.

I think it would be nice to be able to fly my saber w/o wearing my slaves set or w/o wasting 1 hour getting in K-space, jumping clones then traveling back. I'm just crazy(and cheap) that way, I know!


Right there you prove what I assumed in the first post. You want WH life to be easier. You don't want to fly without implants (heaven forbid you not get the extra 3% bonus on whatever) and you don't want to fly anything that might not fit whatever implants you have (again, no bonus and might lose them). And the statement about being "artificially" limited without implants that artificially boost abilities is quite rich.

Jack pointed out clearly and succinctly the same argument I had. And the answer is easy too. Fly an empty clone, fly one with a general set of implants, or just bring extras and plug them in when you need them.

You keep coming off as risk averse and then get angry and cry "stupid posters" whenever someone asks you to explain how this would make WH life better rather than just easier. There is a big difference, though the terms are not mutually exclusive.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#44 - 2014-05-16 13:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
350125GO wrote:
Lenroc Elisav wrote:

Can we live w/o implants? Of course we can. Do we want to be artificially limited in that regard? Don't know about you but I don't.

I think it would be nice to be able to fly my saber w/o wearing my slaves set or w/o wasting 1 hour getting in K-space, jumping clones then traveling back. I'm just crazy(and cheap) that way, I know!


Right there you prove what I assumed in the first post. You want WH life to be easier. You don't want to fly without implants (heaven forbid you not get the extra 3% bonus on whatever) and you don't want to fly anything that might not fit whatever implants you have (again, no bonus and might lose them). And the statement about being "artificially" limited without implants that artificially boost abilities is quite rich.

Jack pointed out clearly and succinctly the same argument I had. And the answer is easy too. Fly an empty clone, fly one with a general set of implants, or just bring extras and plug them in when you need them.

You keep coming off as risk averse and then get angry and cry "stupid posters" whenever someone asks you to explain how this would make WH life better rather than just easier. There is a big difference, though the terms are not mutually exclusive.


How better, explain please! You clearly have no idea of risk assessment or risk vs. reward weighting. You call risk averse anyone although you understand, it seems, that sometimes the 3-5 % benefit doesn't worth the risk. Yeah let's call everyone that thinks, pussies and that will make everything better.
You also have a odd definition for easier. The benefit of having a full set of slaves in a shield tanked Sabre that uses bubbles is virtually nonexistent and because I want the ability to not expose that much worth for that little gain makes me a p*ssy and risk averse. And because I'm not happy with losing time in changing that it means I want it easier. If that's your definition of easier, then yes, I want it easier. I'm not the type that shoot himself in the foot just to make the race more challenging (I'm sure you'll misread that and twist it in some "see, you're lame" fallacy).

You and Jack have no argument, you are just entranced in the status-quo and pretend everything is just peachy with your "Ohh we live in W-space so we must be some tough guys" and other juvenile crap. Tell you what, since you like arbitrary challenges, why don't you stop refitting your ship and fly a jack-of-all-trades ship I mean clearly CCP didn't want refitting in WH they just messed that up.

I have no problem losing ship or pod but will not **** them away just to appear "macho".

Read this Playing to win
Aiyshimin
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2014-05-16 14:22:26 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:

You and Jack have no argument, you are just entranced in the status-quo and pretend everything is just peachy with your "Ohh we live in W-space so we must be some tough guys" and other juvenile crap. Tell you what, since you like arbitrary challenges, why don't you stop refitting your ship and fly a jack-of-all-trades ship I mean clearly CCP didn't want refitting in WH they just messed that up.


Existing, intended game mechanics aren't arbitrary challenges like your ******** comparison.

CCP Abathur wrote:

Laws of W-space

As fun as it is to let you find out things for yourselves, there are a few things that I need to tell you without being ‘mysterious'.

Starbases are allowed to be anchored in W-space but cannot claim sovereignty. Additionally, there are no minable moon minerals in W-space.
The wormholes into W-space are too small to allow the transit of Titans and Motherships. All dreams of Quad-DDing a Sleeper fleet, as much as they might deserve it, are now shattered. (Awww!)
Even though you can bring your Rorquals into W-space, their clone vat bay functionality will be unavailable.
You cannot activate a cynosural beacon in W-space nor can you activate your jump drive (on those ships equipped with one) to escape.


Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-darkness-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/

What do you think, do these laws need to be changed now for your personal benefit? Would changing the other laws benefit more people? And most importantly, can you or can you not change your implants any time you want, anywhere in space?

350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-05-16 14:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: 350125GO
Lenroc Elisav wrote:


How better, explain please! You clearly have no idea of risk assessment or risk vs. reward weighting. You call risk averse anyone although you understand, it seems, that sometimes the 3-5 % benefit doesn't worth the risk. Yeah let's call everyone that thinks pussies and that will make everything better.
You also have a odd definition for easier. The benefit of having a full set of slaves in a shield tanked Sabre that uses bubbles is virtually nonexistent and because I want the ability to not expose that much worth for that little gain makes me a p*ssy and risk averse. And because I'm not happy with losing time in changing that it means I want it easier. If that's your definition of easier, then yes, I want it easier. I'm not the type that shoot himself in the foot just to make the race more challenging (I'm sure you'll misread that and twist it in some "see, you're lame" fallacy).

You and Jack have no argument, you are just entranced in the status-quo and pretend everything is just peachy with your "Ohh we live in W-space so we must be some tough guys" and other juvenile crap. Tell you what, since you like arbitrary challenges, why don't you stop refitting your ship and fly a jack-of-all-trades ship I mean clearly CCP didn't want refitting in WH they just messed that up.

I have no problem losing ship or pod but will not **** them away just to appear "macho".

Read this Playing to win


Your first paragraph makes no sense whatsoever and seems like a rage rant

I'm not speaking from a status quo machismo point of view. I fly with a set of +2 or +3 implants and a 3% cpu implant Some of my clones have gunnery implants, usually of the 3% variety. But I fly every ship I have, and even if I had incredibly expensive clones, I'd fly whatever ship I needed for the fleet/engagement regardless. That's not machismo, that's just how I fly. If I lose a ship, or a clone, it sucks, but they're replaceable. The engagement is where the fun is and I'd rather not sit out an engagement (unless it's obvious I'm gonna get blobbed, and even then there are YOLO moments). You however have stated you won't fly a ship unless you have the right implants for it and you want CCP to make that easier for you so you can fly more of your ships.

You however, very clearly state that you won't fly a saber with your Slave implants. That's probably smart, however, I don't see how allowing you to easily swap to a different clone makes WH's any better. Again, it just makes your life easier, since you can't adjust to flying without implants. Implants are not a requirement to fly any ship.

You seem to be the one who doesn't understand the difference between risk averse and risk vs. reward, and I'll explain the difference. I can afford Slave implants but choose not to buy them because I don't think they're worth the money, especially since I get primaried a lot due to my name and the fact that I tackle often (this is risk vs reward). You can afford Slave implants but won't fly with them unless the conditions are absolutely right, meaning the risks are low (this is risk averse).

Finally, I've made no argument, I've simply asked you to explain how allowing jump clones in WH space makes things better rather than just easier. You are unable to answer that question without calling everyone else stupid and then you suggest others are using fallacies. again, that's rich.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#47 - 2014-05-16 15:16:41 UTC
@Aiyshimin

I didn't propose to be able to jump from K to W as those rules imply. And the rules are a bit of a cop out cause programing issues concerning localization makes jump cloning in and out of W-space very hard to code.\

Are you seriously talking about the possibility of destroying one set of implants in order to insert another? You can't be, I have to be missing something here.

@ at mister number

Clearly you can read but can not comprehend what I'm saying. I've must of bought that slave set just to stroke myself looking at the implants window.Cool
You don't see how switching a clone that isn't worth risking makes WH's any better? Well, for example, you might get something to shoot at if I come out to play in my saber or a shield ship. Or I might take more risk and go against odds and I accept an engagement I would otherwise avoid. And you get content I get content and so on.
The fact that you need explaining how, gaining flexibility and not waisting time with clone switching, is better and encourages more play instead of traveling, doesn't do you any credit. But if the absence of such an explanation gives you ground for your chest beating "I'm hard argghhhh", who am I to deny you that? Enjoy!

P.S. I can very well fly an appropriate +3 clone or an empty one, I just thought it would be fun to experiment with game fits and risks w/o the tedious way the mechanics are now. Well, I guess, I was wrong!!!
I did call somebody stupid and I apologize for that (already edited and explained) other then that I find some of the arguments and stands in this threads to be stupid but It is opinion only, sleep tight.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#48 - 2014-05-16 15:28:14 UTC
I don't think this has anything to do with making things easy or convenient in a way that would break the ideals of w-space.

Or would everyone prefer it if you also had to go back to k-space to refit a module on your ship?
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-05-16 15:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahost Gceo
Despite the fact it kind of goes against traditional feelings with w-space having none of the amenities k-space does, I think this along with removing API kill info will bring more people out of their POSs. +1

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#50 - 2014-05-16 15:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Ahost Gceo wrote:
Despite the fact it kind of goes against traditional feelings with w-space having none of the amenities k-space does, I think this along with removing API kill info will bring more people out of their POSs. +1


I don't personally feel it goes against the flavor if you have to use something like a rorqual for instance to have that facility - especially if you get kill mails for all the clones if the rorqual gets blown up.

Aslong as there is no way to jump directly in and out of w-space between clones I personally think it will do more to better the experience than anything else.
Meytal
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-05-16 18:29:24 UTC
I've made a proposal that might be useful in relation to this : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=344985

Now imagine not only popping the Rorq or POS Medical Bay and getting clone killmails, but also getting some actual clones as loot that can then be ransomed or salvaged :)

Personally, I tend to fly somewhat generic implants so I likely wouldn't use this much. But sometimes, guys from our corp likes to go on Low/Null roams to change things up a little, so switching to a blank clone in home system would be more convenient than nipping out to hisec, jumping, and flying back. The risk would be losing the Rorq or medical facility with ALL of the clones. Everything in W-space remains destroyable.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#52 - 2014-05-16 19:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Is the desire to be able to have a slave set and a crystal set available at a moments notice? There is a lot of general talk about vague things. Please just state clearly what you want to be able to do once this changes were implemented. I'm trying to decide which side I want to fall out on, but it's too general to decide.

What I'm asking from you.

I [name] would like to swap between [list set of implants] and [list other set of implants] at a frequency of [put you swappage time limits here]. This would make game play better because [put your reason here].

If you do this I think we could stop picking nits and make an educated judgement call on this idea.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#53 - 2014-05-17 10:54:48 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Is the desire to be able to have a slave set and a crystal set available at a moments notice? There is a lot of general talk about vague things. Please just state clearly what you want to be able to do once this changes were implemented. I'm trying to decide which side I want to fall out on, but it's too general to decide.

What I'm asking from you.

I [name] would like to swap between [list set of implants] and [list other set of implants] at a frequency of [put you swappage time limits here]. This would make game play better because [put your reason here].

If you do this I think we could stop picking nits and make an educated judgement call on this idea.


I ..... nah, fail troll is fail!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#54 - 2014-05-17 21:40:21 UTC
Wasn't a troll actually. I've rolled with the same set of basic hardwires since I've been playing whs. +3 to shield, armor, grid, capacitor, and damage. It's a compromise for sure, but I wrote that off to one of the trade offs of living in wh space.

I'm not trolling - what do you want to be able to do and how often. I'll be honest. I'm thinking this is an easy mode request to get something into wh that wasn't there from the beginning by design. On the other hand, if you have a legit reason to get me into some better hardwires.... I'd love to hear it.
Meytal
Doomheim
#55 - 2014-05-18 04:45:06 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wasn't a troll actually. I've rolled with the same set of basic hardwires since I've been playing whs. +3 to shield, armor, grid, capacitor, and damage. It's a compromise for sure, but I wrote that off to one of the trade offs of living in wh space.

I'm not trolling - what do you want to be able to do and how often. I'll be honest. I'm thinking this is an easy mode request to get something into wh that wasn't there from the beginning by design. On the other hand, if you have a legit reason to get me into some better hardwires.... I'd love to hear it.

Personally, I can't think of anything this enables that we couldn't already do by nipping out to hisec. It just lets us save some time and convenience. In reality, hisec isn't that far away, even for C5/C6 residents.

So if you're running a full HG slave set (I'm not), and your corp wants to go on a suicide lowsec roam for giggles cause everyone has had just a little too much to drink (I don't), you could swap your clone to an empty one (that you had to pre-stage) and go. Otherwise, you go out to hisec, jump, then fly back to reship for the roam.

You're still stuck for however long it takes for your clone jump timer to expire, but you've saved possibly 5-20 minutes of useless hisec travel. Not terribly critical, but is a convenience.

The most I'd do myself would be to switch to a +5 skill clone if I'm going to be gone for a few days. I've settled on a generic jack-of-all-trades fit as well.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#56 - 2014-05-18 08:09:05 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wasn't a troll actually. I've rolled with the same set of basic hardwires since I've been playing whs. +3 to shield, armor, grid, capacitor, and damage. It's a compromise for sure, but I wrote that off to one of the trade offs of living in wh space.

I'm not trolling - what do you want to be able to do and how often. I'll be honest. I'm thinking this is an easy mode request to get something into wh that wasn't there from the beginning by design. On the other hand, if you have a legit reason to get me into some better hardwires.... I'd love to hear it.


Not a troll but a biased commenter. "Easy mode request" seem to be my crime here. Although it is possible to swap clones even as a W-space resident (so the feature is there) since all you need to do is waste some time going to K and then fly the other clone back in, if I ask to do the same w/o the wasting time part I'm a pansy who wants it easy.
Some of you are so entranced that don't even see the opportunities arising from such a change. Traveling Rorquals back and forth from W-space to K-space can become targets(very very juicy targets), captured clones could be ransomed or processed (fictional but interesting idea) for looting implants as Meytal suggested.
Plus with such a change maybe some of you cheap +3 bastards will get flying some other, more expensive, implants P. I've got the balls to fly an expensive clone in W-space and I get called risk averse by the +3 gang cause I don't want to throw that away [facepalm] in a YOLO fight or a null shotgun.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-05-18 11:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
350125GO wrote:

You however, very clearly state that you won't fly a saber with your Slave implants. That's probably smart, however, I don't see how allowing you to easily swap to a different clone makes WH's any better. Again, it just makes your life easier, since you can't adjust to flying without implants. Implants are not a requirement to fly any ship.

You seem to be the one who doesn't understand the difference between risk averse and risk vs. reward, and I'll explain the difference. I can afford Slave implants but choose not to buy them because I don't think they're worth the money, especially since I get primaried a lot due to my name and the fact that I tackle often (this is risk vs reward). You can afford Slave implants but won't fly with them unless the conditions are absolutely right, meaning the risks are low (this is risk averse).


Just because someone doesn't want to use a pod worth billions in a ship that does not benefit from said pod does not mean that they want to make their life easy and even if it did, what do you care? Do you think it make you a better pilot just because you don't have access to the most basic technology in eve?

The basis for this game is that we are practically immortal through the use of clones, so it's logical to expect that technology to be present in all parts of space. There is no reason that we shouldn't be able to use the rorquals clone bay other than CCPs lack of foresight.

The benefit of allowing the use of clones in W-space could be that people start to fly different types ships and maybe they would become less risk adverse. I think it's you that doesn't understand the difference between risk and stupidity.

What are the disadvantages?
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#58 - 2014-05-18 16:49:59 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:

Not a troll but a biased commenter. "Easy mode request" seem to be my crime here. Although it is possible to swap clones even as a W-space resident (so the feature is there) since all you need to do is waste some time going to K and then fly the other clone back in, if I ask to do the same w/o the wasting time part I'm a pansy who wants it easy.
Some of you are so entranced that don't even see the opportunities arising from such a change. Traveling Rorquals back and forth from W-space to K-space can become targets(very very juicy targets), captured clones could be ransomed or processed (fictional but interesting idea) for looting implants as Meytal suggested.
Plus with such a change maybe some of you cheap +3 bastards will get flying some other, more expensive, implants P. I've got the balls to fly an expensive clone in W-space and I get called risk averse by the +3 gang cause I don't want to throw that away [facepalm] in a YOLO fight or a null shotgun.

All of the above is why I now have instant sig bounces, an overlay that reconfirms everything on it when you mouse over it and why W-space populations are remaining constant instead of dynamic.
EvE made easy is for empire. EvE on hard-mode is W-space. You describe yourself in your own words as someone who would only engage if they were in the right clone. So that's the only reason behind the post.
As for not wanting to YOLO in an expensive clone ..... are you a KB princess or simply broke? If the former then you might want to look up the meaning of YOLO and not EVER do it and if the latter then you might want to look at what you are doing wrong with you isk making time.
TL;DR but for a second think about the fact that probably over 95% of WH life even dedicated PVP-wise in WH's is spent searching, scanning, chaining and observing. The smallest portion is actually engaging. The no JC FEATURE is part of the life we chose. So train a ship/race/type specific alt or go here , but please no more bad SSC ideas for cruise control on our space ships. Thanks.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#59 - 2014-05-18 17:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Lenroc Elisav wrote:

Not a troll but a biased commenter. "Easy mode request" seem to be my crime here. Although it is possible to swap clones even as a W-space resident (so the feature is there) since all you need to do is waste some time going to K and then fly the other clone back in, if I ask to do the same w/o the wasting time part I'm a pansy who wants it easy.
Some of you are so entranced that don't even see the opportunities arising from such a change. Traveling Rorquals back and forth from W-space to K-space can become targets(very very juicy targets), captured clones could be ransomed or processed (fictional but interesting idea) for looting implants as Meytal suggested.
Plus with such a change maybe some of you cheap +3 bastards will get flying some other, more expensive, implants P. I've got the balls to fly an expensive clone in W-space and I get called risk averse by the +3 gang cause I don't want to throw that away [facepalm] in a YOLO fight or a null shotgun.

All of the above is why I now have instant sig bounces, an overlay that reconfirms everything on it when you mouse over it and why W-space populations are remaining constant instead of dynamic.
EvE made easy is for empire. EvE on hard-mode is W-space. You describe yourself in your own words as someone who would only engage if they were in the right clone. So that's the only reason behind the post.
As for not wanting to YOLO in an expensive clone ..... are you a KB princess or simply broke? If the former then you might want to look up the meaning of YOLO and not EVER do it and if the latter then you might want to look at what you are doing wrong with you isk making time.
TL;DR but for a second think about the fact that probably over 95% of WH life even dedicated PVP-wise in WH's is spent searching, scanning, chaining and observing. The smallest portion is actually engaging. The no JC FEATURE is part of the life we chose. So train a ship/race/type specific alt or go here , but please no more bad SSC ideas for cruise control on our space ships. Thanks.


Straw-man much?!? All you could came up with as a con argument is a pathetic ad hominem attack, your type is why we can't have nice things in life.

P.S. There is no "no JC feature" you can JC all you want(respecting timers) you just need to go to K then travel back.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#60 - 2014-05-19 12:00:56 UTC
I'm pretty sure it wasn't ad hominem but my French is rusty I admit.
Nobody says you can't have nice things in wormholes least of all me.
If I need slaves or crystals or any other kind of imps I can pull mine out and replace them with the countless spares I keep at pos. This is something you should be able to do.
You are in one of the bigger alliances who can farm relatively risk free so why you want 7/11's in every system is beyond me and most.
You put it out for discussion, it didn't get the welcome you thought it would and you have spent your whole time since then attacking those who don't agree.
Move along.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity