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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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ZecsMarquis
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#321 - 2014-05-15 19:39:43 UTC
Well I participated in the sisi mass test in my phoenix today and with the new changes I have some thoughts. The RoF change is really nice. Out of TiDi it feels like I'm firing cruise missiles as far as the feel of the RoF. I managed to solo a capital or two and got on a few other mails as well. I was firing at a triaged archon at one point. He was standard triage archon fit with the cpr's and eanm and all that, standard cookie cutter. It felt like I was applying most if not all damage. He was at max velocity before entering triage so he was slowly going from 77 to about 48 m/s by the time I took him down. It feels like it's in decent shape. Burdeddi's proposal is still worth looking into as well as a sig bloom but it was a lot better at applying damage than I expected.

I was able to tank a Hel's full flight of bombers for a few minutes as well and I didn't activate my booster until he pulled aggro to something else, at which point I was 75% cap and was back to full shields after about 6 cycles or so.

The other dreads are probably still better but even if the application is weak that RoF really makes it a good damage boat finally.

So far I approve.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#322 - 2014-05-15 20:27:42 UTC
ZecsMarquis wrote:
I was firing at a triaged archon at one point. He was standard triage archon fit with the cpr's and eanm and all that, standard cookie cutter. It felt like I was applying most if not all damage. He was at max velocity before entering triage so he was slowly going from 77 to about 48 m/s by the time I took him down.

I doubt that Archon had Evasive Maneuvers links which reduce its signature radius, so you probably were. Even the new Phoenix has no issues applying to unlinked Archons, but as soon as they have links it becomes a different story. The sigradius link is just so powerful, especially against missiles and bombs which care about signature radius more than guns.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#323 - 2014-05-16 02:27:38 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
The dread changes are good, but you still haven't said anything to address missile hp concerns, nor speed tanking by moving carriers/bumped dreads in siege.

The corner case of citadel missiles in a wolf-rayet can probably be ignored since only a silly FC would use shield dreadnoughts there.


Hah

Considering that shield fit dreads are STILL BETTER THAN ARMOR DREADS even in a wolf-rayet, only a silly FC would not use them.
progodlegend
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2014-05-16 03:06:13 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)


What about -50% from wolf rayet wh? Halo+mindlinked bonuses+wolf rayer c6 = very little damage from missiles


Just don't use phoneix's in a wolf-rayet wormhole.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#325 - 2014-05-16 03:15:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)

You know capital missile mechanics are borked when you have to change every single other ship in class to accomodate them.
Ragnen Delent
13.
#326 - 2014-05-16 03:50:54 UTC
Can someone just do the needful and show what all the other dreads can do to subcaps so we can show how these changes are foolish? I get that some ships will be worse than others sometimes but damn man this is absurd. Not to mention, once this pass is done I am thinking it will be a very long time indeed before they are looked at again.

Let's do this right.
Mario Putzo
#327 - 2014-05-16 04:02:38 UTC
Ragnen Delent wrote:
Can someone just do the needful and show what all the other dreads can do to subcaps so we can show how these changes are foolish? I get that some ships will be worse than others sometimes but damn man this is absurd. Not to mention, once this pass is done I am thinking it will be a very long time indeed before they are looked at again.

Let's do this right.


**** damage to subcaps, honestly that is hardly an overall concern, these could really do 0 to subcaps and I wouldn't lose sleep. Youve got Sentry Carriers for Anti SubCap support. The fact these can't hit idle carriers for 100% damage is a major design flaw.
Ragnen Delent
13.
#328 - 2014-05-16 04:14:39 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ragnen Delent wrote:
Can someone just do the needful and show what all the other dreads can do to subcaps so we can show how these changes are foolish? I get that some ships will be worse than others sometimes but damn man this is absurd. Not to mention, once this pass is done I am thinking it will be a very long time indeed before they are looked at again.

Let's do this right.


**** damage to subcaps, honestly that is hardly an overall concern, these could really do 0 to subcaps and I wouldn't lose sleep. Youve got Sentry Carriers for Anti SubCap support. The fact these can't hit idle carriers for 100% damage is a major design flaw.



The point is that as it stands these changes are being performed quite obviously to avoid having a Phoenix be capable of hitting a subcap. The point of showing that the others CAN is to point out that the effort to avoid this is absurd given that all other dreads are capable of doing so.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#329 - 2014-05-16 05:13:24 UTC
Fun fact, by increasing the sig of all dreads all dreads become easier to hit and lock all other dreads... So all dreads just got a tracking bonus, and a scan res bonus vs other dreads. Win win.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2014-05-16 05:24:25 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
For all the people moaning about increased Explosion Radius...

  1. TPs work on capital ships as well as subcaps (when they're not in siege/triage)
  2. Capital rigor rigs reduce explosion radii by 15% for T1 and 20% for T2

So there might be a new "standard phoenix fit". So what. That's not unusual after a significant rebalance like this.
Except having to fit target painters squeezes the mid slots, which means less tank, which means the hull bonus is negated, and the ship ends up back where it is, except the missiles move a little faster and damage barely moving capitals a little more.
Mario Putzo
#331 - 2014-05-16 06:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Ragnen Delent wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ragnen Delent wrote:
Can someone just do the needful and show what all the other dreads can do to subcaps so we can show how these changes are foolish? I get that some ships will be worse than others sometimes but damn man this is absurd. Not to mention, once this pass is done I am thinking it will be a very long time indeed before they are looked at again.

Let's do this right.


**** damage to subcaps, honestly that is hardly an overall concern, these could really do 0 to subcaps and I wouldn't lose sleep. Youve got Sentry Carriers for Anti SubCap support. The fact these can't hit idle carriers for 100% damage is a major design flaw.



The point is that as it stands these changes are being performed quite obviously to avoid having a Phoenix be capable of hitting a subcap. The point of showing that the others CAN is to point out that the effort to avoid this is absurd given that all other dreads are capable of doing so.



Except the issue isn't about vs Sub Cap. Carriers already dominate subcaps. Any carrier comp will kill subcaps with sentries (aside from a comp specifically designed to beat carriers of course). They are your subcap counter. If other dreads can hit sub caps so what other BS can hit smaller ****, and you don't see CCP scrambling to address the comparative damage application of the Raven, Scorp, or Trashcan. The problem is CCP in their attempt to prevent subcap blapping has made the Phoenix worse at Capital blapping. Worse enough that they believe increasing the sig radius of Dreads is the solution to the problem.

Dreads should counter Carriers, other Dreads, and be the primary choice for DPS vs Supers and Titans. The sub cap **** is secondary.

Ignore the subcap ****, it is irrelevant. It makes no difference if a Moros can hit a BS harder than a Phoenix. It makes a huge difference when you need to change 4 hulls and a structure to facilitate a change to the Phoenix is just another band aid knee jerk fix.

The Phoenix needs love in dealing with capitals not sub caps, and CCP needs to address its ability to do so properly. It can be done, someone showed how it can be done last page.

Edit: Someone = Burneddi
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#332 - 2014-05-16 07:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
Mario Putzo wrote:

Ignore the subcap ****, it is irrelevant. It makes no difference if a Moros can hit a BS harder than a Phoenix.
When dreadnoughts are a not-uncommon source of anti-cruiser DPS, it matters. Breaking through triage reps on a deadspace fit armor T3 requires a lot of DPS; since battleships are practically unusable due to crappy resists & vulnerability to blap dreads, something has to kill those cruisers.
Mario Putzo
#333 - 2014-05-16 07:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

Ignore the subcap ****, it is irrelevant. It makes no difference if a Moros can hit a BS harder than a Phoenix.
When dreadnoughts are a not-uncommon source of anti-cruiser DPS, it matters. Breaking through triage reps on a deadspace fit armor T3 requires a lot of DPS; since battleships are practically unusable due to crappy resists & vulnerability to blap dreads, something has to kill those cruisers.


Battlecruisers. Carrier Sentry Drones. Other Cruisers. Bombers. Frigates. Ignore subcaps. They are irrelevant. They are taken care of by other subcaps, and by carriers.

The problem is not the Phoenix's ability to hit subcaps. The problem with the proposed change is its inability to hit Capitals.

A proper fix for the Phoenix should not involve the adjustment of 4 ship hulls and a structure. I can't wait for the tears from dread pilots who die to blap Titans because their Sig Radius is ******* ******.

"Hey guys we want dreads to be the primary choice for dealing with Capitals, Supers and Titans....so we are going to increase the Sig Radius of dreads so Titans can Blap them while they are moving."
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#334 - 2014-05-16 07:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
Mario Putzo wrote:
Battlecruisers. Carrier Sentry Drones. Other Cruisers. Bombers. Frigates. Ignore subcaps. They are irrelevant. They are taken care of by other subcaps, and by carriers.

Typical fleet comp for non-strategic fights might be one dread, 10-15 armor cruisers, and four or five Guardians / one triage carrier for logi. Battlecruisers can't fit a decent resist profile for RR and can't be used in large numbers because of their high mass. Unless you spend several days preparing for the fight in that specific system or it's occurring in your home system, you're limited to an absolute maximum of three (3) capital ships. Two carrier's worth of sentry drones isn't that much dps, armor T3s laugh at bombers, and any frigate is an invitation to get quickly podded, thus being unable to get to your home system for several hours; in the case of a system siege you might not get home for days, which makes frigates less than popular.

All of these facts mean that yes, dreadnought dps vs. subcaps is important, and gun dreads are generally able to fulfill this role.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2014-05-16 07:44:44 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:

The best thing CCP could do to boost the never-not moros problem, is nerf XL blaster range into oblivion where it should be. I get it that they want you to hit pos's with AM for full damage, but that arbitrary point means pushing the ranges to absurd and silly levels.

I've never seen why a Moros has an innate right to use the shortest ranged ammo in a short-range weapon and be at optimal vs. a large POS. One of the drawbacks of blasters is supposed to be their short range.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2014-05-16 08:41:55 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:

Question... why does the Caldari ships have lower scan res than their Mimatar counterparts? Isn't lore wise, Caldari suppose to be second only to Jove in technology. So you factor in lower base scan res with the flight time of missiles- it gimps the application of dps a bit.
And yes, i found out that the Phoon is potentially a much better torp boat than the Raven... Nice balance CCP.
I prefer the Raven for torps, most of the time, because torps have such a short range, and the Raven helps with that. For Cruise Missiles the Typhoon comes out ahead because you don't need the range boost with them. Of course, if you're sure you'll only ever inside ~20km, the Typhoon wins any time. That said, for most of my uses getting a navy version is worth it, and the CNR wins out there.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2014-05-16 08:53:15 UTC
Daenika wrote:

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

As a sub-cap pilot (large small gangs) I really don't want those modules in the game. Shield ships are already starved for slots once you put a bit of EWAR in, and those modules will make it worse, except for those few ships with tons of low slots (it's probably come out okay for the Nighthawk, for example). Remember, the missile ships most in need of help are Caldari, which means shield tanks, and it means even the T2 models have that huge EM hole that eats a slots to fill before you even really begin building a (PvP) tank.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#338 - 2014-05-16 09:05:57 UTC
progodlegend wrote:

Just don't use phoneix's in a wolf-rayet wormhole.

Now that you're here, did they run this change past you guys? How on earth did none of you object? I voted for you dude god damn it.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#339 - 2014-05-16 09:43:34 UTC
Onslaughtor wrote:
Fun fact, by increasing the sig of all dreads all dreads become easier to hit and lock all other dreads... So all dreads just got a tracking bonus, and a scan res bonus vs other dreads. Win win.


well, this is working as intended heh?
so by buffing the phoenix CCP is buffing the other dreads also? oau, Fozzie, that's how a buff it's done, congrats!
Luscius Uta
#340 - 2014-05-16 12:11:08 UTC
Not liking the changes, of course. Yes, explosion velocity for citadel missiles was laughable, but there was no need to increase their explosion radius, especially not by 50%. And now you "fix" that mistake by increasing signature radius of Dreads, seriously WTF??

Now, if you increased the explosion radius of citadel torpedoes by only 20% that would end up in explosion radius of 1800m with perfect skills. Enough to perfectly hit any POS or capital ship without Ragnarok bonus or Halo implants, AFAIK. Citadel cruises, on the other hand, need a slight decrease (maybe 10%) in explosion radius since their damage output is already so low that they have no practical application that I've heard of.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.