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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#421 - 2014-05-16 02:42:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Training is a core mechanic, but that doesn't mean it can't be altered or portions of it changed, nor does it mean it's not an ability.
It definitely keeps it from being an ability, unless you also consider things like opening the market window or looking at the star map an ability. It's not something that characterises a character or account — it's just a basic functionality. And again, the actual ability in question was not preserved. That's why the skills were reimbursed: because the ability they were meant to provide had been removed, and since that rendered the skills pointless, they were removed too.

Quote:
The SP reimbursement was for time, not the loss of an ability to train for faster training.
The SP reimbursement was for skills that no longer provided the ability they were supposed to, since that ability was removed from the game. Had the skills been revamped into something different, there might not have been a reimbursement since your training would still have afforded you some kind of ability that set your character apart from others.
Actually the ability that was removed was deemed to be detrimental, but CCP chose to compensate the time spent investing in it. Furthermore they decided to provide the advantage of training speeds as granted by the skills in the form of attribute points.

There was no worth in the ability to train for the improvement of training, but there was worth in improved training. That was the entire point of the change. Thus losing something that had no worth that only served as a barrier to something with worth was a benefit in itself and thus not something that needs compensation.

As far as ability vs basic functionality, there are a lot more interactions that go on in skill training than opening the market window.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#422 - 2014-05-16 02:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
But there are others who are getting this same advantage who have invested less time.
…which doesn't change the fact that you're getting an advantage through this transition. Nor is it particularly relevant since there are roughly a bajillion ways that can and will happen even without this kind of alteration. Time only very vaguely translates into SP, and even more vaguely into actual advantages.

That's why the time → advantage coupling is not something CCP cares about. What they care about is unlocked ability.

Quote:
While I like the quotes being taken out of context as it makes your argument appear stronger, no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.

I didn't take your quote out of context, though. I merely pointed out that you were wrong. Training CDO V gives you an advantage over someone who hasn't trained CDO V, and will continue to do so after the switch-over — in fact, after the switch-over, it will provide even more advantages than before. Just because you realised the mistake you made doesn't change this fact.

Quote:
no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.
…and yet, it still provides an advantage.

Quote:
You are entitled to your opinion.
It's not really an opinion, though. When people try to paint gains as losses just because someone else gains more, and try to appeal to fairness when they're already getting unfair advantages and don't even speak a word about actually handing out those advantages fairly, it is a hypocritical expression of selfish greed. There's no other way to describe it.

Quote:
Sure it does. You don't have to lose something for an outcome to be unfair. That's just silly. Refunding SP isn't a very hard thing to do, I'm not sure why you think it's impossible. It's been done before.
That's a nice strawman you have there. To bad it proves you wrong and me right, since you can't actually provide a proper point and have to resort to fallacies instead.

And no, just because someone else is getting a bigger bump than you do does not mean it's unfair, especially not given the sizeable advantage you're being given over others. If you want to talk about unfairness, let's start by sorting out the unfairness in your favour before complaining about how sad things are for you…
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#423 - 2014-05-16 02:54:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually the ability that was removed was deemed to be detrimental, but CCP chose to compensate the time spent investing in it. Furthermore they decided to provide the advantage of training speeds as granted by the skills in the form of attribute points.
…and in doing so, the ability to alter your training speeds was replaced by a fixed increase in all training speeds everywhere. At best, a parallel could be drawn between that ability and the remap mechanic, but that one is more accurately a replacement for the static bloodline bonuses.

Quote:
Thus losing something that had no worth that only served as a barrier to something with worth was a benefit in itself and thus not something that needs compensation.
Weeell… it had a value. It just didn't make up for the costs it incurred in terms of player annoyance and follow-on effects. P
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#424 - 2014-05-16 03:00:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:

And no, just because someone else is getting a bigger bump than you do does not mean it's unfair, [...]


Yes, it does.

un·fair:
- not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#425 - 2014-05-16 03:06:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually the ability that was removed was deemed to be detrimental, but CCP chose to compensate the time spent investing in it. Furthermore they decided to provide the advantage of training speeds as granted by the skills in the form of attribute points.
…and in doing so, the ability to alter your training speeds was replaced by a fixed increase in all training speeds everywhere. At best, a parallel could be drawn between that ability and the remap mechanic, but that one is more accurately a replacement for the static bloodline bonuses.
You lost me here, the ability to change something doesn't seem to be able to be compensated by simply increasing it. You can compensate the effect of an upward change, but that method of actually causing change is gone for good with no workaround (excluding perhaps remaps/implants, but those arguably can't be compensation either as the coexisted, also the bloodline thing as you mentioned). Though, either way it still pairs the AP change with the loss of functionality by this logic, not the SP refund.

Further an SP refund can't actually compensate for functionality changes either, only time invested into a mechanic that was removed (learning skills) or changed (social skills).
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Thus losing something that had no worth that only served as a barrier to something with worth was a benefit in itself and thus not something that needs compensation.
Weeell… it had a value. It just didn't make up for the costs it incurred in terms of player annoyance and follow-on effects. P
I suppose if being a PITA is value, sure. I certainly don't miss them
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#426 - 2014-05-16 03:08:12 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
I don't get it.
That's because you're so locked into this petty feud between SDOers and CDOers that you miss the bigger picture.

Quote:
The second quote refutes your first argument. Your response to the second quote doesn't make sense.
No, the second quote is an inaccurate rendering of what's going on; my response is a correction. I was hoping that you'd be so intrigued that you went to look up what the changes will actually do, but apparently not…

CDO V gives you an advantage over player who didn't train CDO V: you currently get a +25% bonus and will get all types of light and medium drones, from T1 to named and faction to T2. Someone without CDO V currently gets a lower bonus and might not get the same range of drones. Having trained CDO V will also give you 256k SP out of nowhere that others will have to actually spend time on training.

Just because some players (viz. the ones who have trained SDO V or CDO V) will get the same bonuses and drones does not mean you're not getting an advantage over other players for having trained CDO V. You do.

Quote:
Yes, it does.
Categorical claims are categorically false.
No, someone getting a bigger bump than you do can actually be exactly what fairness dictates, and both getting the same bump can be hideously unequal and unjust. So their getting a bigger bump than you does even remotely mean it's automatically unfair.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#427 - 2014-05-16 03:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
You lost me here, the ability to change something doesn't seem to be able to be compensated by simply increasing it.
Yes. That was my point: the ability could not be compensated for, so the skills became worthless and had to be reimbursed. I'm answering what you said about how the skills were doubly compensated — I'm saying they were only compensated once (through the SP reimbursement).

I think we might have one of those “aggressively agreeing” situations here. Lol

Quote:
I suppose if being a PITA is value, sure. I certainly don't miss them
No, I mean the actual ability to speed up your training has some intrinsic value. Its being a horrible meta-mechanic that only ever managed to annoy players meant that the negatives massively outweighed that value.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2014-05-16 03:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
But there are others who are getting this same advantage who have invested less time.
…which doesn't change the fact that you're getting an advantage through this transition. Nor is it particularly relevant since there are roughly a bajillion ways that can and will happen even without this kind of alteration. Time only very vaguely translates into SP, and even more vaguely into actual advantages.

That's why the time → advantage coupling is not something CCP cares about. What they care about is unlocked ability.

Quote:
While I like the quotes being taken out of context as it makes your argument appear stronger, no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.

I didn't take your quote out of context, though. I merely pointed out that you were wrong. Training CDO V gives you an advantage over someone who hasn't trained CDO V, and will continue to do so after the switch-over — in fact, after the switch-over, it will provide even more advantages than before. Just because you realised the mistake you made doesn't change this fact.

Quote:
no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.
…and yet, it still provides an advantage.

Quote:
You are entitled to your opinion. It's not really an opinion, though. When people try to paint gains as losses just because someone else gains more, and try to appeal to fairness when they're already getting unfair advantages and don't even speak a word about actually handing out those advantages fairly, it is a hypocritical expression of selfish greed. There's no other way to describe it.

Sure it does. You don't have to lose something for an outcome to be unfair. That's just silly. Refunding SP isn't a very hard thing to do, I'm not sure why you think it's impossible. It's been done before.
That's a nice strawman you have there. To bad it proves you wrong and me right, since you can't actually provide a proper point and have to resort to fallacies instead.

And no, just because someone else is getting a bigger bump than you do does not mean it's unfair, especially not given the sizeable advantage you're being given over others. If you want to talk about unfairness, let's start by sorting out the unfairness in your favour before complaining about how sad things are for you…


Wow. I'm impressed. With so many previous posts and your disregard for the points provided, I can see your need to be the winner of the discussion.

I'm hypocritical and selfish. I have fallacies, things are sad for me and I make mistakes. Sigh, ok sure if that's what floats your boat and makes you feel you've won, then go ahead. In all honesty I thought you would provide more mature feedback, but I forgot this is GD so I should expect trolling.

But the point still stands that there are players who are getting SP that they didn't earn. Some of them are getting a significant boost. I may be getting an advantage but it's irrelevant because so is everyone else. Quoting my advantage over future players is also irrelevant. We're talking about what's happening now and it's the people who trained for less time who are getting the same advantage. Eve is a time based game and as a CDO5 skilled player, that was time I invested in the skill that I would like to invest elsewhere.

I'm done for the evening as I work in the morning, but fear not, I'll be back tomorrow if the thread isn't locked. Just not sure I can keep going over the the points with you again and again as it's probably pointless.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#429 - 2014-05-16 03:22:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
You lost me here, the ability to change something doesn't seem to be able to be compensated by simply increasing it.
Yes. That was my point: the ability could not be compensated for, so the skills became worthless and had to be reimbursed. I'm answering what you said about how the skills were doubly compensated — I'm saying they were only compensated once (through the SP reimbursement).

I think we might have one of those “aggressively agreeing” situations here. Lol

Probably, try as I might I'm just not getting the same logic flow to work for me. My understanding was:

- Training for training was bad for various reasons and is being removed.
- Training times are being buffed to the top end for everyone to effectively avoid nerfing training
- Here's the time you invested back as SP

SP for the ability to train for training doesn't necessarily make sense since, as you pointed out with SDO V characters, the ability was held most by the people with the least investment, yet they received the least reimbursement. After all if you completed the learning skills folder you no longer had the ability to train for faster learning, and your refund for that loss would equally be 0.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#430 - 2014-05-16 03:47:18 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:


Eve is a time based game .. .


No it is not. Really not.

I suppose you can make it one by deciding to play a single character and never use the character bazaar, but even then after a few years you are just adding more variety of skills to a single character that are arguably better off being trained on an alt.

You can make EVE a time based game and I suppose there is nothing wrong with playing a single character you created and trained all by yourself but it is not an essential (or even common) way to play eve. Most people have scout alts and hauler alts and cyno alts and even alts that specialize in different ships/weapons. Once you bring in alts and the character bazaar the whole SP race becomes far less relevant.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#431 - 2014-05-16 04:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gavin Dax
Tippia wrote:
Just because some players (viz. the ones who have trained SDO V or CDO V) will get the same bonuses and drones does not mean you're not getting an advantage over other players for having trained CDO V. You do.


You trained both to have an advantage over *anyone* who did not have both. That advantage is supposed to last until another pilot trains both themselves. Given the current patch changes, it only lasts until a pilot trains one or the other. So yes, you still have an advantage after the patch, but it's not the advantage you trained for. If it was the advantage you trained for, then you would have only trained one of the two skills.

Tippia wrote:

No, someone getting a bigger bump than you do can actually be exactly what fairness dictates, and both getting the same bump can be hideously unequal and unjust. [...]


Yes, and that is not the case here. You feel that someone with just SDO V should get more of a bump than someone with both, and you think this is what fairness dictates? What is the precise reason why they should get more in your opinion? Why does fairness dictate this?
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#432 - 2014-05-16 05:23:16 UTC
I have decided to hide tippias posts. She is just trolling, thats all. Or I hope at least. No one sane would suggest that someone gaining 768k skillpoints while someone else is gaining only 256k skillpoints is in any way fair. And we are talking about current players, not some future players or some **** like that .
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#433 - 2014-05-16 05:32:13 UTC
Your loss. I don't always agree with Tippia but he's not a troll.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#434 - 2014-05-16 05:44:50 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Your loss. I don't always agree with Tippia but he's not a troll.

Well if she isn't then it really means she (he?) is really that dumb.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#435 - 2014-05-16 05:45:27 UTC
wow well if it was about giving a bunch of players extra sp it'd be unfair

but it's about making sure that what you used to be able to use you can still use

some people can try and game the system for advantage, that's fine, but they don't deserve reward or equal reward for it because that's not the goal of the change
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#436 - 2014-05-16 06:03:35 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Your loss. I don't always agree with Tippia but he's not a troll.

Well if she isn't then it really means she (he?) is really that dumb.



Nope he/she is making very valid points and certain people obsessed with SP and skill queues refuse to listen to any logic that argues SP equality is not the relevant issue here. There seems to be a certain degree of SP fundamentalism going on here.

People should stop obsessing over skill points and go play the game.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#437 - 2014-05-16 06:21:39 UTC
Well, to be fair, now and then Tippia is a troll.
Now is not one of those times however, if Tippia & I aren't ripping into each other but agreeing, it's normally a pretty strong sign some other people are lacking common sense.

To lay it out yet again.
Current skills.
SDO: Drone Range + Light & Medium T2 Drones
CDO: Light & Medium Drone Damage.

Post Change Skills.
DA: Drone Range
LDO: Light Drone Damage + Light T2 Drones.
MDO: Medium Drone Damage + Medium T2 Drones.

So, someone with SDO V has access to T2 drones currently. Post patch day they should still have access to T2 drones so they need LDO & MDO at V in order to gain that.
Someone with SDO V has drone range, so they need DA V to gain that.
Someone with CDO V has Damage so they need LDO & MDO V to gain that.

This means is you have only SDO V you get a bit more damage from skills as a by-product.
This means if you have only CDO V you gain access to T2 drones as a by product.
If you have both, you are right where you are now.
But CCP's choice here is to not remove the ability to do what you can currently.

As to why the SP is irrelevant. If they suddenly change a skill from *1 multi to *10 multi, should you have to train another 30 days to be where you were before they changed? The answer is no. SP doesn't have a 'value'. SP gets you skills which have abilities which have values.
So the value is on the ability, not the SP to get there. The SP to get there provides some judgement between ability values, but the abilities are the important part. Meaning it's irrelevant how many extra sp someone else gains or even you gain. What is relevant is if you agree with the basic philosophy that a skill change should never make you loose abilities.

TLDR. CCP is preserving current abilities, this has a small side effect in edge cases & deliberately gamed cases of giving a minor new ability in order to avoid removing abilities. If you disagree, convince CCP the entire design philosophy is wrong, don't argue on 'SP bonus isn't fair'.
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#438 - 2014-05-16 06:32:24 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Well, to be fair, now and then Tippia is a troll.
Now is not one of those times however, if Tippia & I aren't ripping into each other but agreeing, it's normally a pretty strong sign some other people are lacking common sense.

To lay it out yet again.
Current skills.
SDO: Drone Range + Light & Medium T2 Drones
CDO: Light & Medium Drone Damage.

Post Change Skills.
DA: Drone Range
LDO: Light Drone Damage + Light T2 Drones.
MDO: Medium Drone Damage + Medium T2 Drones.

So, someone with SDO V has access to T2 drones currently. Post patch day they should still have access to T2 drones so they need LDO & MDO at V in order to gain that.
Someone with SDO V has drone range, so they need DA V to gain that.
Someone with CDO V has Damage so they need LDO & MDO V to gain that.

This means is you have only SDO V you get a bit more damage from skills as a by-product.
This means if you have only CDO V you gain access to T2 drones as a by product.
If you have both, you are right where you are now.
But CCP's choice here is to not remove the ability to do what you can currently.

As to why the SP is irrelevant. If they suddenly change a skill from *1 multi to *10 multi, should you have to train another 30 days to be where you were before they changed? The answer is no. SP doesn't have a 'value'. SP gets you skills which have abilities which have values.
So the value is on the ability, not the SP to get there. The SP to get there provides some judgement between ability values, but the abilities are the important part. Meaning it's irrelevant how many extra sp someone else gains or even you gain. What is relevant is if you agree with the basic philosophy that a skill change should never make you loose abilities.

TLDR. CCP is preserving current abilities, this has a small side effect in edge cases & deliberately gamed cases of giving a minor new ability in order to avoid removing abilities. If you disagree, convince CCP the entire design philosophy is wrong, don't argue on 'SP bonus isn't fair'.

If CCP did the change without telling anyone then I would argue it's just edge case. But I guarantee you a LOT of people trained CDO just because dev blog said so. So no, it's not an "edge" case.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#439 - 2014-05-16 06:42:44 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:

If CCP did the change without telling anyone then I would argue it's just edge case. But I guarantee you a LOT of people trained CDO just because dev blog said so. So no, it's not an "edge" case.

Anyone who trained it in the tiny window between the initial post and post 630 has had months of value from their drones doing more damage. So has gotten value for it.
Anyone who trained it after that failed to both read the posts, & understand the meaning of a Dev blog as a proposed change taking final feedback. Till it's in patch notes, it's not 100% final. And failed to do homework properly while attempting to speculate on maximising their SP, and they still make an SP profit.
In none of these cases do they need any additional compensation.
Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#440 - 2014-05-16 06:44:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Walter Hart White wrote:

If CCP did the change without telling anyone then I would argue it's just edge case. But I guarantee you a LOT of people trained CDO just because dev blog said so. So no, it's not an "edge" case.

Anyone who trained it in the tiny window between the initial post and post 630 has had months of value from their drones doing more damage. So has gotten value for it.
Anyone who trained it after that failed to both read the posts, & understand the meaning of a Dev blog as a proposed change taking final feedback. Till it's in patch notes, it's not 100% final. And failed to do homework properly while attempting to speculate on maximising their SP, and they still make an SP profit.
In none of these cases do they need any additional compensation.

We are not required to read "forums" to get updates. If there was an update just 2 days from initial dev blog, why not change the dev blog? And a lot of folks trained CDO without even needing it. Mostly because you might need it in future and if you trianed it now you would not need to train two skill sets in the future.