EVE General Discussion

Which isn't a problem since the CDO5 person isn't losing any actual bonuses. He's losing advantage, but CCP has a precedent for not reimbursing people for losing advantage.

It isn't a problem if you didn't invest the time into CDO5. I know they have a precedent for it, but that doesn't mean it's THE way or it can't be questioned.

That's because there isn't one. The SDO guys are not the ones who are saying that they somehow deserve a “reimbursement” (which is actually a doubling of their SP). I'm simply pointing out that, yes, such a reimbursement would not be a reimbursement at all — it would simply be free SP. Any appeal to “fairness” is nonsensical unless it demands that everyone be given the same amount of free SP… which no-one seems to be doing.

That's what happens sometimes when abilities are being switched around. All that matters is that you don't lose any, and if you happen to gain some in the process, then good for you.

Fairness isn't nonsensical when one of the core elements your money pays for is being altered. I pay a monthly fee to train my alt on a time basis. SDO5 guys are getting a bump in skill points which equates to time which they haven't invested. Likewise, I should get a bump in skill points which I haven't invested.



I suppose that's good enough for you, but not for me. Accepting something without questioning it isn't the best method in my book. You're %100 right, I didn't lose anything but as I've said before, it's not about losing anything. It's about the time I invested in CDO5 being equal to what an SDO5 person invested.

Thanks for the invite - finally, I've made it into a corp! I would love to see you get your astrometrics skills reimbursed. It's why I'm posting on the forums so the Devs know that there are those of us who would like to see it changed.

This is probably the real issue here.

In theory you train SP to gain abilities improve your skills and gain access to things. Much like in real life you do a university degree to gain abilities improve your skills and gain access to things (like a career and better income).

Now sadly in real life SOME unfortunate people do actually do a university degree to gain an advantage over someone else rather than for what the degree actually offers. I suppose if you treat your gaming the same way then you would see the drone skill change as "losing" your 1 week "advantage" over other people.

In the current scenario my attitude is:

1. IF you trained CDO for the legitimate purpose of using the skill there is no need to reimburse.
2. if you trained it as patch speculation hoping to manipulate some sort of SP advantage over newer players well too bad it backfired

Because then an argument could be made that, yes, letting people keep the abilities they had and handing out four times as much SP would actually be reasonable. It would still not provide any grounds for reimbursement, though.

Good thing that nothing of the kind is happening, then.
It is especially nonsensical when the appeal to fairness is is just a hypocritical expression of selfish greed.

SDO V guys are getting a bump in skill points. So are you. Just because your isn't as big as theirs does not mean it's unfair. If you somehow lost something, then we might talk, but you won't — the guiding principles try to avoid it, and the specific implementation of this change makes it impossible to do so.

Tough. That's how it is. Advantages are being lost every second you train anything above lvl I and will all be lost before long anyway. What you should never lose, though, is what you have already unlocked. That's what your time is worth: abilities. If those abilities amount to an actual advantage is completely situational and contextual and variable, and as such, they can't really be used as a measure of investment value.

That's why CCP retains and reimburses ability, not advantage. One can trivially and universally be measured and expressed in absolute levels, the other cannot.

Good news: it's not, nor should it be since we're talking about vastly different abilities.

Training is a core mechanic, but that doesn't mean it can't be altered or portions of it changed, nor does it mean it's not an ability. Rather the designation of core mechanic only states that that ability is integral to the working of progression within the game.

The ability to speed up training was separate, but as you said it existed to speed up training, which is what the attribute increase did. No one trained the skills for the sake of training the skills, they trained for the affect and that was preserved without including the SP reimbursement. The SP reimbursement was for time, not the loss of an ability to train for faster training, which doesn't make sense to compensate since it's explicitly being eliminated was the goal of the change.

But there are others who are getting this same advantage who have invested less time.



While I like the quotes being taken out of context as it makes your argument appear stronger, no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.

I don't get it. The second quote refutes your first argument. Your response to the second quote doesn't make sense.

I assume what you meant here is that you're gaining an advantage vs. future players (well, more of an advantage). The key point is that skills are trained to gain an advantage over *everyone* who does not have that skill. And that advantage is clearly lost.