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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#381 - 2014-05-16 00:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I didn't lose anything when the learning skills were removed due to the base attribute increases. That was still refunded.
Yes you did.
You lost the ability to increase your attributes through skill bonuses.

Since that ability was gone, you got back the SP that only served the purpose of providing that ability.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#382 - 2014-05-16 00:59:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Again, all that matters is that you don't lose anything.


And this is where the problem is - that's not all that matters. If you forgo the time invested by people who trained CDO5, sure it doesn't matter. But people who trained that skill feel differently.

Mario Putzo wrote:
Why do we train skills? Its not to have more SP than someone else, its to gain an advantage over someone else.

Tippia wrote:
…and with this change, you're getting an advantage that is much harder for others to gain that it was for you, so you come out ahead.


No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#383 - 2014-05-16 01:00:48 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Those learning skills were not replaced by an equal or greater number of different skills.
So then the removal can mirror the change to the old agent skill, preserving training decisions and completing the switch over.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#384 - 2014-05-16 01:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
And this is where the problem is - that's not all that matters.
Yes it is. Especially since you end up with more time on your character sheet than you've actually trained for.

Quote:
No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.
…which still doesn't matter. Oh, and they have to make a time investment to get that advantage, by the way.
And my answer demonstrates that the supposed loss of the old advantage is cancelled out by being given a new advantage.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2014-05-16 01:05:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I didn't lose anything when the learning skills were removed due to the base attribute increases. That was still refunded.
Yes you did.
You lost the ability to increase your attributes through skill bonuses.

Since that ability was gone, you got back the SP that only served the purpose of providing that ability.
Losing the ability to increase attributes through skills was a direct result of the skill removal, and was double compensated, first through SP trained then by ability. And since the plan was established based upon preserving ability, why can't training be preserved along side it as was done there?

I'm not even saying it should, but I curious as to the logic that says so adamantly that it shouldn't.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-05-16 01:05:58 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.

We have numerous precedents from CCP to show that this isn't a problem. Loss of advantage does not constitute a need for reimbursement. Please see: The scanning overhaul, Astrometrics, and Astrometric Rangefinding in particular. People that had Astro 5/rangefinding 5 lost alot of advantage compared to people that only had astro 4 and **** support skills post odyssey. No reimbursement occurred.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#387 - 2014-05-16 01:08:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.

We have numerous precedents from CCP to show that this isn't a problem. Loss of advantage does not constitute a need for reimbursement. Please see: The scanning overhaul, Astrometrics, and Astrometric Rangefinding in particular. People that had Astro 5/rangefinding 5 lost alot of advantage compared to people that only had astro 4 and **** support skills post odyssey. No reimbursement occurred.
Wasn't the advantage there just moved to another form?
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2014-05-16 01:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
And this is where the problem is - that's not all that matters.
Yes it is. Especially since you end up with more time on your character sheet than you've actually trained for.


As does the person who didn't train CDO5 except their gain is even greater. Again, my time is trivialized when this happens. I trained CDO5 only to find that I would still reap the same benefit if I had trained SDO5.


Quote:
No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.
Quote:
…which still doesn't matter. Oh, and they have to make a time investment to get that advantage, by the way.
And my answer demonstrates that the supposed loss of the old advantage is cancelled out by being given a new advantage.


And it does matter. Time matters in eve. And the advantage that party a has now compared to party b is equal which it wouldn't be before the change.

Wow, I think I'm getting the hang of this editing/quoting/posting thing mom.
Zachary Taylor
Yoyodyne corporation
#389 - 2014-05-16 01:09:11 UTC
CCP should reimburse the skill points based on what the toon has and give everyone 2 remaps. Everyone's happy.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#390 - 2014-05-16 01:09:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
One problem: the BC and destroyer skills did not, and are not, exchange any abilities between each other, so the comparison is nonsensical.


Continue to ignore the main point of the example by focusing on a minor detail that actually has no relevance. If there was a coupling of the skills it wouldn't make one bit of difference as to whether or not players should be reimbursed or change the fact that there would be a better way to make the change.

I did not make a straw man argument, because the way my example differed from this case was not relevant to the outcome.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#391 - 2014-05-16 01:13:59 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Losing the ability to increase attributes through skills was a direct result of the skill removal, and was double compensated, first through SP trained then by ability.
No. They could have removed the ability and let you keep the useless skills. Instead, they removed the ability to gain additional attribute points and, since the skills no longer served any purpose, you got your training time back.
It was also only compensated once: by the SP reimbursement.

The increase in attributes was not an ability: it was an across-the-board stat boost that was wholly disconnected from all kinds of abilities or skills.

Quote:
And since the plan was established based upon preserving ability, why can't training be preserved along side it as was done there?
That's exactly what they're doing: the abilities you trained for are being preserved. The only difference is that, as it happens, the straightened-out skill path means that some abilities will now be coupled with different abilities than before.

It can't be done the way they did with learning skills because in that case, there was no preservation of ability since the whole point of the change was to remove that ability. Instead, you got your time back. Getting your time back doesn't make sense in this case because the abilities can be (and are being) preserved. After all, the abilities themselves don't actually change — they're just being moved around on the skill tree.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#392 - 2014-05-16 01:17:30 UTC
I'm amazed there is 20 pages about something this trivial.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#393 - 2014-05-16 01:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.

We have numerous precedents from CCP to show that this isn't a problem. Loss of advantage does not constitute a need for reimbursement. Please see: The scanning overhaul, Astrometrics, and Astrometric Rangefinding in particular. People that had Astro 5/rangefinding 5 lost alot of advantage compared to people that only had astro 4 and **** support skills post odyssey. No reimbursement occurred.
Wasn't the advantage there just moved to another form?

Nope, just a marked reduction.

Pre-Odyssey:
Astro 4 (3 days) = 7 probes
Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 (2.5 months) = 8 probes with +50% scan strength. The 8th probe in particular was quite useful for those that knew how to do it right. Also deep space probes, which were extremely useful in a particular niche.

Post-Odyssey:
Astro 4 = 8 probes, +20% scan strength
Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 = 8 probes with +50% scan strength. Deep Space probes removed.

I use Astro 4 compared to Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 as those represent the two general extremes of useful scanning in terms of SP investment. As you can see, considerable advantage was lost, no reimbursement was had.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#394 - 2014-05-16 01:18:32 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
As does the person who didn't train CDO5 except their gain is even greater.
…which is irrelevant. All that matters is that they keep the abilities they trained for.

Quote:
And it does matter. Time matters in eve.
Not when it comes to improving the skill paths and retaining people's abilities. All that matters there is that the abilities are retained. Now, as it happens, everyone with a time advantage will have that advantage extended though this change. Exactly how much will vary, but making it even bigger as “compensation” doesn't make any sense since they're already being compensated with extra time.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2014-05-16 01:21:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Losing the ability to increase attributes through skills was a direct result of the skill removal, and was double compensated, first through SP trained then by ability.
No. They could have removed the ability and let you keep the useless skills. Instead, they removed the ability to gain additional attribute points and, since the skills no longer served any purpose, you got your training time back.
It was also only compensated once: by the SP reimbursement.

The increase in attributes was not an ability: it was an across-the-board stat boost that was wholly disconnected from all kinds of abilities or skills.

Quote:
And since the plan was established based upon preserving ability, why can't training be preserved along side it as was done there?
That's exactly what they're doing: the abilities you trained for are being preserved. The only difference is that, as it happens, the straightened-out skill path means that some abilities will now be coupled with different abilities than before.

It can't be done the way they did with learning skills because in that case, there was no preservation of ability since the whole point of the change was to remove that ability. Instead, you got your time back. Getting your time back doesn't make sense in this case because the abilities can be (and are being) preserved. After all, the abilities themselves don't actually change — they're just being moved around on the skill tree.

Actually there was a preservation of ability, though that ability was training speed, rather than training for training speed. Had it simply been a strait removal and reimbursement for time there would have been a training time nerf.

Similarly a person with SDO V loses the ability to train the new skills where they might otherwise have had the ability to do so depending upon CDO level. The only difference in this case is that the granted capabilities lie in skill form rather than being able to be directly inherited in static for by the character. That's the only distinction I see, and I don't necessarily think it obvious that it should be handled differently based upon that.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2014-05-16 01:22:58 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.

We have numerous precedents from CCP to show that this isn't a problem. Loss of advantage does not constitute a need for reimbursement. Please see: The scanning overhaul, Astrometrics, and Astrometric Rangefinding in particular. People that had Astro 5/rangefinding 5 lost alot of advantage compared to people that only had astro 4 and **** support skills post odyssey. No reimbursement occurred.
Wasn't the advantage there just moved to another form?

Nope, just a marked reduction.

Pre-Odyssey:
Astro 4 (3 days) = 7 probes
Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 (2.5 months) = 8 probes with +50% scan strength. The 8th probe in particular was quite useful for those that knew how to do it right. Also deep space probes, which were extremely useful in a particular niche.

Post-Odyssey:
Astro 4 = 8 probes, +20% scan strength
Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 = 8 probes with +50% scan strength. Deep Space probes removed.

I use Astro 4 compared to Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 as those represent the two general extremes of useful scanning in terms of SP investment. As you can see, considerable advantage was lost, no reimbursement was had.


But the advantage wasn't eliminated, which is what the problem is here. The skill did not become useless.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2014-05-16 01:27:16 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

No, this answer doesn't change the fact that existing people are getting an advantage without the time investment.

We have numerous precedents from CCP to show that this isn't a problem. Loss of advantage does not constitute a need for reimbursement. Please see: The scanning overhaul, Astrometrics, and Astrometric Rangefinding in particular. People that had Astro 5/rangefinding 5 lost alot of advantage compared to people that only had astro 4 and **** support skills post odyssey. No reimbursement occurred.
Wasn't the advantage there just moved to another form?

Nope, just a marked reduction.

Pre-Odyssey:
Astro 4 (3 days) = 7 probes
Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 (2.5 months) = 8 probes with +50% scan strength. The 8th probe in particular was quite useful for those that knew how to do it right. Also deep space probes, which were extremely useful in a particular niche.

Post-Odyssey:
Astro 4 = 8 probes, +20% scan strength
Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 = 8 probes with +50% scan strength. Deep Space probes removed.

I use Astro 4 compared to Astro 5/Rangefinding 5 as those represent the two general extremes of useful scanning in terms of SP investment. As you can see, considerable advantage was lost, no reimbursement was had.

Isn't it +56.25% with both at V now? Similarly with the other 2 skill enhanced attributes? Granted still a lower difference but still there is some distinction.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#398 - 2014-05-16 01:27:54 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Continue to ignore the main point of the example by focusing on a minor detail that actually has no relevance.
Close but not quite. I'm focusing on a detail that makes your example have no relevance. You're trying to make a RaA argument by increasing the time and SP involved, but since the cases aren't alike, it becomes fallacious.

You're trying to draw parallels to a case that completely lacks the crucial detail that makes this case completely unlike the other one. So the only real observation that can be made is that, as expected, CCP has no problem handing out accidental access to new stuff or massive amounts of SP people haven't trained for. The only thing that's really important is that no-one lose the abilities they had.

Quote:
I did not make a straw man argument, because the way my example differed from this case was not relevant to the outcome.
That's true enough: no matter what, there would be no grounds for reimbursement since everyone kept what they had.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#399 - 2014-05-16 01:28:16 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:


But the advantage wasn't eliminated, which is what the problem is here. The skill did not become useless.

Neither SDO nor CDO will become useful or useless as both will cease to exist. Someone with SDO 5 will lose no bonuses. Someone with SDO 5/CDO 5 will lose no bonuses.

Someone with SDO 5/CDO 5 will lose some advantage to someone with just SDO 5, just as happened in the astrometrics changes. Precedent tells us that this is acceptable.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#400 - 2014-05-16 01:30:50 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Isn't it +56.25% with both at V now? Similarly with the other 2 skill enhanced attributes? Granted still a lower difference but still there is some distinction.

My numbers may be off by a bit. It's actually a moot point since post-odyssey scanning is so retardedly easy I wish I had kept all of my characters at astro 4/rangefinding 3. That would be 2 months of time I'd gain on 3 characters. *sigh* The numbers don't really begin to show the amount of advantage lost with the odyssey changes.