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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#361 - 2014-05-15 23:57:12 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
This is why giving skill points to someone who hasn't invested the time is flawed (at least in my opinion).

…and they're not doing that either, so it all works out fine in the end. It is a good explanation for why there is no grounds for any kind of reimbursement, though.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#362 - 2014-05-15 23:57:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Not selfish at all. If you're talking about existing new players, they can start training the skills now and get the relevant points back.
You're assuming that they want the skills, which they obviously aren't since they aren't training them. So they'd just end up with the exact same 512k SP they would have gotten anyway.

No, it's entirely selfish. They want more SP because someone else is getting more SP than they do. The fact that they get more SP as well is already unfair by the same standard. If they got even more, that's just more unfair, but that doesn't bother them, now does it? It's only when it's “unfair” to them that a “reimbursement” (read: additional free hand-out) is in order.

It really doesn't get any more selfish than that: “someone else got more so I deserve more and screw everyone else”.


Giving skill points to someone who hasn't invested the time could be considered the flaw. Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish. If you want to give away free skill points, reciprocally the person who invested the time for those skill points should be compensated in some fashion.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#363 - 2014-05-16 00:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case. Instead, they want to be “reimbursed” for the grievance of having already been given more training time than they invested in just because someone else got more. And there really is no way to describe that sense of entitlement other than “selfish”

Quote:
If you want to give away free skill points, reciprocally the person who invested the time for those skill points should be compensated in some fashion.
They already are. They want to be compensated for the fact that they're being compensated. They are being given some and now they want more.

Until they start specifying how people who haven't trained any of these skills should be compensated, “selfish” is an entirely accurate description of the kind of self-serving nonsense they're spewing.
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#364 - 2014-05-16 00:12:30 UTC
Why don't they just reimburse people with however many SP they have in CDO since this skill is effectively irrelevant (semi removal) now that SDO will give players access to the 3 new skills.

That way it's fair and noone loses out on SP compared to other players withouth CDO levels.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2014-05-16 00:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case. Instead, they want to be “reimbursed” for the grievance of having already been given more training time than they invested in just because someone else got more. And there really is no way to describe that sense of entitlement other than “selfish”

Quote:
If you want to give away free skill points, reciprocally the person who invested the time for those skill points should be compensated in some fashion.
They already are. They want to be compensated for the fact that they're being compensated. They are being given some and now they want more.

Until they start specifying how people who haven't trained any of these skills should be compensated, “selfish” is an entirely accurate description of the kind of self-serving nonsense they're spewing.


It still boils down to the fact that party A invested less time than party B. Party A is still getting the same benefit as party B. Wanting party A to pay the same price as party B did for the same skills is only natural, not selfish. I would be fine if it weren't skill points refunded. Instead, give me some other new skill for drones to level 5. Trivializing the time I and others have invested isn't a solution that benefits anyone.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#366 - 2014-05-16 00:14:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case.

Well yes it is, because I trained both SDO 5 and CDO 5, and getting exactly what I would have gotten had I trained just SDO 5 and not even injected CDO.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#367 - 2014-05-16 00:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gavin Dax
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case. Instead, they want to be “reimbursed” for the grievance of having already been given more training time than they invested in just because someone else got more. And there really is no way to describe that sense of entitlement other than “selfish”

Quote:
If you want to give away free skill points, reciprocally the person who invested the time for those skill points should be compensated in some fashion.
They already are. They want to be compensated for the fact that they're being compensated. They are being given some and now they want more.

Until they start specifying how people who haven't trained any of these skills should be compensated, “selfish” is an entirely accurate description of the kind of self-serving nonsense they're spewing.


Tippia, your argument just falls completely flat when you consider that this scenario could happen with skills that have much longer training times. I guess if CDO V was a 3 month skill to train instead of ~10 days, people who ask to be reimbursed would have a selfish sense of entitlement?

*EDIT* Nevermind, I realize that you're right. It is potentially somewhat selfish (although part of it is just about making the game better and more fair for everyone) and definitely a sense of entitlement. But it's also completely justified. No one is saying it's also justified when compared to future players though, but again, that's not what this thread is about. That is an entirely different topic.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#368 - 2014-05-16 00:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Logan Revelore wrote:
Why don't they just reimburse people with however many SP they have in CDO since this skill is effectively irrelevant (semi removal) now that SDO will give players access to the 3 new skills.
Because the SP and abilities aren't lost. It's hardly fair that people who are given 256k SP for free should be given another 512k SP for free even though they keep all the abilities they had.

Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It still boils down to the fact that party A invested less time than party B.
…which is still irrelevant, and isn't grounds for reimbursement. You are still asking to get more only because someone else got more than you did. Unless you ask that everyone get more, it's pure selfishness since you don't lose anything in the process.

Quote:
Trivializing the time I and others have invested isn't a solution that benefits anyone.
It benefits pretty much everyone since it keeps things as simple and as fair as possible.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Well yes it is, because I trained both SDO 5 and CDO 5, and getting exactly what I would have gotten had I trained just SDO 5 and not even injected CDO.

You trained both SDO V and CDO V and you're getting exactly what you'd get if you trained SDO V and CDO V. Nothing is lost. In fact, you gain half a week of training that you don't have to do because CCP wants you to keep all your old abilities. Someone else gaining more than you do is not a loss.

Gavin Dax wrote:
I guess if CDO V was a 3 month skill to train instead of ~10 days, people who ask to be reimbursed would have a selfish sense of entitlement?

If the SP wasn't lost and if they got exactly what they trained for, then yes. Asking to be reimbursed for not losing anything (indeed, for gaining 50% more than they had) would still be the same selfish sense of entitlement. Reductio ad absurdum only works as a proper argument if you keep all the circumstances the same — if you don't, it immediately becomes a fallacy.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2014-05-16 00:24:12 UTC
Logan Revelore wrote:
Why don't they just reimburse people with however many SP they have in CDO since this skill is effectively irrelevant (semi removal) now that SDO will give players access to the 3 new skills.

That way it's fair and noone loses out on SP compared to other players withouth CDO levels.



There are others who would agree, that would be fair.
Mario Putzo
#370 - 2014-05-16 00:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Easiest way to do it:

Cut CDO. Give Everyone SP back from CDO.
Make SDO apply to all new skills.

Slightly more effort.

SDO = Light and Medium Skill Level.
CDO = New drone support skill.

If you don't have CDO. You don't get ****.

e: dunno why that quoted
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2014-05-16 00:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
1.
Tippia wrote:
Logan Revelore wrote:
Why don't they just reimburse people with however many SP they have in CDO since this skill is effectively irrelevant (semi removal) now that SDO will give players access to the 3 new skills.
Because the SP and abilities aren't lost. It's hardly fair that people who are given 256k SP for free should be given another 512k SP for free even though they keep all the abilities they had.

2.
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
It still boils down to the fact that party A invested less time than party B.
…which is still irrelevant, and isn't grounds for reimbursement. You are still asking to get more only because someone else got more than you did. Unless you ask that everyone get more, it's pure selfishness since you don't lose anything in the process.

3. [quote]Trivializing the time I and others have invested isn't a solution that benefits anyone.
It benefits pretty much everyone since it keeps things as simple and as fair as possible.

4.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Well yes it is, because I trained both SDO 5 and CDO 5, and getting exactly what I would have gotten had I trained just SDO 5 and not even injected CDO.

You trained both SDO V and CDO V and you're getting exactly what you'd get if you trained SDO V and CDO V. Nothing is lost. In fact, you gain half a week of training that you don't have to do because CCP wants you to keep all your old abilities. Someone else gaining more than you do is not a loss.


1. They are not free skill points. They have already been payed for with the time that the person invested.

2. The person who is getting more right now is the person who only trained SDO5. How is that fair? By your own logic, in order to keep this fair, there should be compensation to the CDO5 people. Everyone is getting more, it should just be equally.

3. What is simple and fair is refunding the skill points.

4. Again, it's not whats lost, it's what's gained by others without investing the same amount of time.


Heh, guess you can only quote 5 times. I really gotta figure out to use the edit feature here.
Mario Putzo
#372 - 2014-05-16 00:36:59 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

You trained both SDO V and CDO V and you're getting exactly what you'd get if you trained SDO V and CDO V. Nothing is lost. In fact, you gain half a week of training that you don't have to do because CCP wants you to keep all your old abilities. Someone else gaining more than you do is not a loss.


1. They are not free skill points. They have already been payed for with the time that the person invested.

2. The person who is getting more right now is the person who only trained SDO5. How is that fair? By your own logic, in order to keep this fair, there should be compensation to the CDO5 people.

3. What is simple and fair is refunding the skill points.

4. Again, it's not whats lost, it's what's gained by others without investing the same amount of time.


Heh, guess you can only quote 5 times. I really gotta figure out to use the edit feature here.


I think you are missing the point.

Why do we train skills? Its not to have more SP than someone else, its to gain an advantage over someone else.

I have SDO and CDO to 5 so I have an advantage over people. After this change I will no longer have that advantage. Anyone with SDO to 5 CDO <5 will now have the exact same capacity as me for using both light and medium drones.






Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#373 - 2014-05-16 00:39:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Gavin Dax wrote:
I guess if CDO V was a 3 month skill to train instead of ~10 days, people who ask to be reimbursed would have a selfish sense of entitlement?

If the SP wasn't lost and if they got exactly what they trained for, then yes. Asking to be reimbursed for not losing anything (indeed, for gaining 50% more than they had) would still be the same selfish sense of entitlement. Reductio ad absurdum only works as a proper argument if you keep all the circumstances the same — if you don't, it immediately becomes a fallacy.


Imagine if during the BC/Destroyer skill changes, CCP instead used your highest level of destroyer skill OR BC skill to determine everything. So if you had destroyer V you would get the same benefit as anyone with BC V, and vice versa.

In your view, this would be fine, even though there is clearly a better alternative. Note "better", and not "best", because yes, it's also not fair to future pilots.

In this example, pilots who trained only destroyers would be getting BCs for free. Just like pilots who trained only SDO are effectively getting CDO for free. Clearly there is a *better* alternative and I just cannot understand why you are so strongly opposed to it.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2014-05-16 00:40:21 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:

You trained both SDO V and CDO V and you're getting exactly what you'd get if you trained SDO V and CDO V. Nothing is lost. In fact, you gain half a week of training that you don't have to do because CCP wants you to keep all your old abilities. Someone else gaining more than you do is not a loss.


1. They are not free skill points. They have already been payed for with the time that the person invested.

2. The person who is getting more right now is the person who only trained SDO5. How is that fair? By your own logic, in order to keep this fair, there should be compensation to the CDO5 people.

3. What is simple and fair is refunding the skill points.

4. Again, it's not whats lost, it's what's gained by others without investing the same amount of time.


Heh, guess you can only quote 5 times. I really gotta figure out to use the edit feature here.


I think you are missing the point.

Why do we train skills? Its not to have more SP than someone else, its to gain an advantage over someone else.

I have SDO and CDO to 5 so I have an advantage over people. After this change I will no longer have that advantage. Anyone with SDO to 5 CDO <5 will now have the exact same capacity as me for using both light and medium drones.





Another reason. I was looking at it from a time invested point of view, but this is just as relevant.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#375 - 2014-05-16 00:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
They are not free skill points. They have already been payed for with the time that the person invested.
They are free because the abilities the person invested time in are retained.

They accumulated 256k SP to gain access to T2 drones and +25km control range, and 512k SP to gain access to +25% bonuses.
If they're reimbursed, they will end up with:
• 768k SP to gain access to T2 drones and +25% bonuses.
• 256k SP to gain access to +25km drone control range.
• 512k SP to be applied anywhere.

They keep the time they invested — this is the point you're missing. There is nothing to reimburse. They are being given a ton of free SP. Depending on your outlook, a “reimbursement” would mean they end up with twice the SP they spent time accumulating. Trying to paint such a state of affairs as “fair” is nonsensical, as is any attempt at framing a doubling of your SP as a “reimbursement”. A reimbursement would mean you ended up with the same SP you had before, not twice as much.

So yes, they are free SP. Unless you're suggesting that everyone be given the same amount of free SP, any kind of appeal to fairness is sheer hypocrisy.

Quote:
The person who is getting more right now is the person who only trained SDO5. How is that fair?
It's not meant to be. The point is that those who keep crowing about it being unfair are conveniently skipping over the fact that their “solution” to this unfairness is so massively unfair that it puts their own complaint to shame.

By my logic, fairness isn't a factor beyond ensuring that you keep what you had. The CDO V people don't have a leg to stand on as far as fairness is concerned unless they ask that people who haven't trained anything at all is being given as much free SP as they are.

Quote:
What is simple and fair is refunding the skill points.
How is it fair that they get their SP doubled and others get nothing? You're suggesting the exact same kind of outcome as you're decrying as unfair.

The fair thing would be this: you lose your CDO and SDO skills and all associated abilities and bonuses. The SP in these skills are earmarked for the new skills and can only be used for them. Since the new skills require more SP than the old ones, you will not be able to regain all of your old abilities.

Quote:
Again, it's not whats lost, it's what's gained by others without investing the same amount of time.
What others gain is irrelevant.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#376 - 2014-05-16 00:46:25 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:


Imagine if during the BC/Destroyer skill changes, CCP instead used your highest level of destroyer skill OR BC skill to determine everything. So if you had destroyer V you would get the same benefit as anyone with BC V, and vice versa.

In your view, this would be fine, even though there is clearly a better alternative. Note "better", and not "best", because yes, it's also not fair to future pilots.

In this example, pilots who trained only destroyers would be getting BCs for free. Just like pilots who trained only SDO are effectively getting CDO for free. Clearly there is a *better* alternative and I just cannot understand why you are so strongly opposed to it.

Nice Strawman.
The Destroyer/BC changes were unlinked because Destroyer skills do not affect if you can use BC's, & vice versa.

However SDO is what unlocks access to the T2 Drones currently, while CDO is what gives a damage bonus.
Under the new system, Light & Medium drone skills will both unlock & give a damage bonus.
So the effects of SDO & CDO are both part of the new skills.

Meaning there is no better alternative that doesn't cause people to not have abilities they had before the change.
While CCP have very occasionally done this, the most recent example was Navy ships needing 2 in the skill rather than 1, which they decided a few hours train wasn't significant. This would be 12 days training at least to get back light & medium tech 2 drones or your existing damage bonus if they didn't take the better of the two skills, since they are intertwined skills currently rather than discrete skills.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#377 - 2014-05-16 00:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gavin Dax wrote:
Imagine if during the BC/Destroyer skill changes, CCP instead used your highest level of destroyer skill OR BC skill to determine everything.
One problem: the BC and destroyer skills did not, and are not, exchange any abilities between each other, so the comparison is nonsensical. Like I said, this is where your attempted reductio ad absurdum becomes a fallacy rather than a valid argument.

Again, all that matters is that you don't lose anything.

Mario Putzo wrote:
Why do we train skills? Its not to have more SP than someone else, its to gain an advantage over someone else.
…and with this change, you're getting an advantage that is much harder for others to gain that it was for you, so you come out ahead.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#378 - 2014-05-16 00:51:57 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case.

Well yes it is, because I trained both SDO 5 and CDO 5, and getting exactly what I would have gotten had I trained just SDO 5 and not even injected CDO.

You didn't lose anything. Someone with SDO 5 and CDO 5 with retain all of the perks they currently have after the update. No bonuses were lost by you.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#379 - 2014-05-16 00:54:52 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case.

Well yes it is, because I trained both SDO 5 and CDO 5, and getting exactly what I would have gotten had I trained just SDO 5 and not even injected CDO.

You didn't lose anything. Someone with SDO 5 and CDO 5 with retain all of the perks they currently have after the update. No bonuses were lost by you.
I didn't lose anything when the learning skills were removed due to the base attribute increases. That was still refunded.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#380 - 2014-05-16 00:56:38 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Wanting reimbursement for the time you invested isn't selfish.
It is if the time you invested is somehow lost, which it isn't in this case.

Well yes it is, because I trained both SDO 5 and CDO 5, and getting exactly what I would have gotten had I trained just SDO 5 and not even injected CDO.

You didn't lose anything. Someone with SDO 5 and CDO 5 with retain all of the perks they currently have after the update. No bonuses were lost by you.
I didn't lose anything when the learning skills were removed due to the base attribute increases. That was still refunded.

Those learning skills were not replaced by an equal or greater number of different skills.