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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#601 - 2014-05-15 22:34:21 UTC
"We understand that things are a bit **** at the moment. What we are going to do is try and polish this turd until it is mildly acceptable.

Hopefully you will all be quiet after that. Just because something is less functional than before, does not mean that we can't introduce it. Until you realise this we will continue to push out faulty patches without any customisation options.

Jesus, what is wrong with you people."

PS. "Now you get 10 patches a year to endure this.....HAHAHA."

Seriously - just code ON/OFF switches for new UI features - we aren't asking too much.

Aaaaaaand relax.

Little Chubby
Atrocity.
#602 - 2014-05-15 23:20:23 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:

The current list is in my earlier post.



Honestly? Most of the tooltips are great, so long as they can be changed to be customized as to delay and transparency. Cool. Everyone loves information.

But for the love of all that is holy, remove the goddamn giant scrollblock of death. Making it easier to see through doesn't cut it when it's in the way of what you need to click on.

An obstructive scroll list that prevents you from clicking what is behind it is wholly unwanted and objectively damaging to the game. If you've every tried to manual pilot in a fight or similar, you'd know this and see that it's making the game unplayable for many people. Some people like information, I've seen NOBODY like the brick of death. Remove it, or at least give it a 5-10 second delay by default. If somebody wants to see that list, they'll hover it for that long, else the old system works in actual gameplay far, far better in every situation.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#603 - 2014-05-15 23:36:59 UTC
Little Chubby wrote:
brick of death
This is the correct nomenclature.
The whole “tool tip” thing is just an expression of wishful thinking.
Sumarx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#604 - 2014-05-15 23:50:56 UTC
The Past Patch Should be called the Black Plague Patch as its Slowly Killing your Game!
As a Veteran player you guys have made mistakes and the only way to shine again is to fix the problem. You once decided to take out ship spinning, last I looked that went over well and your player base was happy to get it back. Its the small things we all grow accustom to. Like the Jove like to say If its not Broke don't fix it !!!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#605 - 2014-05-16 00:00:35 UTC
It is not hyperbole to say that I basically cannot play the game anymore.

Not for lack of desire, either.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#606 - 2014-05-16 00:45:00 UTC
Would it be possible to bundle AdBlock Plus with the next eve client so that the user base has the option to block annoying popups?
Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#607 - 2014-05-16 00:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Belt Scout
It occurred me earlier while trying to work my way around the involuntary spamtips in space. There is a great way for CCP to keep them, modify them, love them hug them hold them close, or whatever they want to do with them. My way would keep them away from us that don't need them, but make them instantly available to a newbro pilot that needs to know something.

Ready?

Here it comes.

The simple solution is;

PUT THEM IN THE SHOW INFO PANEL OF THE RADIAL MENU. Make them a 'drag out' selection of that panel much like the way dragging the pointer out of 'keep at range', 'orbit', etc changes the value as you move the mouse pointer away from center.

It's a perfect fix. You can do it for every single tooltip in the game. You wont have to tweak timings, transparency, the hang time before it disappears, nothing. Just move the trigger to the radial menu and problem solved. The radial menu ALREADY has the features we want for the tooltips. Variable delay, it's usage is voluntary in design, and it can be moved to another mouse button. (Personally, I set it on the center wheel button and turn the delay down to minimal. If I want the radial, it's instant.)

That's it. Give this post likes if you like this idea and we can ram it down CCP's throat together. They can do this. Any chimpanzee can code this in an hour.

.

They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake.

**This IS my main so STFU.

Little Chubby
Atrocity.
#608 - 2014-05-16 01:09:13 UTC
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#609 - 2014-05-16 01:15:39 UTC
I want a tooltip that tells me that the tooltip I'm hovering over is, in fact, a tooltip.

Please don't forget to incorporate that into your future release.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2014-05-16 01:28:38 UTC
Belt Scout wrote:
It occurred me earlier while trying to work my way around the involuntary spamtips in space. There is a great way for CCP to keep them, modify them, love them hug them hold them close, or whatever they want to do with them. My way would keep them away from us that don't need them, but make them instantly available to a newbro pilot that needs to know something.

Ready?

Here it comes.

The simple solution is;

PUT THEM IN THE SHOW INFO PANEL OF THE RADIAL MENU. Make them a 'drag out' selection of that panel much like the way dragging the pointer out of 'keep at range', 'orbit', etc changes the value as you move the mouse pointer away from center.

It's a perfect fix. You can do it for every single tooltip in the game. You wont have to tweak timings, transparency, the hang time before it disappears, nothing. Just move the trigger to the radial menu and problem solved. The radial menu ALREADY has the features we want for the tooltips. Variable delay, it's usage is voluntary in design, and it can be moved to another mouse button. (Personally, I set it on the center wheel button and turn the delay down to minimal. If I want the radial, it's instant.)

That's it. Give this post likes if you like this idea and we can ram it down CCP's throat together. They can do this. Any chimpanzee can code this in an hour.

.


I don't know, that's asking a lot. From the chimps.

They don't have opposable thumbs.
Cpt Reb
Interstellar eXodus
#611 - 2014-05-16 02:22:32 UTC
I absolutly HATE the tooltips!!!!!!! Cut this crap out it ruins the game for me and a lot of others from what I hear and read! You should delete tooltips and never ever consider doing it again.
ViRtUoZone
Commie Bunny Pirates
#612 - 2014-05-16 02:48:50 UTC
I hate that I keep seeing, 'you should have been on the test server and tested it for them.'
Hell no.
I'm not paying CCP so that I can spend my time testing their game.
'Oh well how can you complain if you didn't test them?'
Because the things take up half the screen and have (for anyone that's been playing this game for any period of time) zero functionality bonus and not adding an off button should have been a pretty obviously horrible idea.


Main point, I'm not asking you to stop appealing to new players. But pay some attention what your old ones are saying, they might know a bit more than you would expect.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#613 - 2014-05-16 03:05:15 UTC
I've read the 31 pages of this thread so far, because I have a vested interest in these changes because they affect my own game play (negatively) but also because I strongly think they will harm new players. Here's something notable about the 31 pages of comments so far: as far as I can tell, virtually no one has said the tool tips have improved their game play. Of the few that have said the tool tips should stay in game, not one, as far as I've read, has given concrete examples of which tool tips or which change besides the predictive mouse movements have benefited them.

Rarely are a wide variety of eve players in agreement about changes in the game, but when it comes to tool tips it looks as if virtually everyone, even newer players posting here, hate them.

Also, 31 pages in and no CCP Rise? He gave the NPE presentation at fanfest, so where is he in this thread? Maybe he can explain what the hell went so wrong.
Marcel Brinalle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2014-05-16 03:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Brinalle
Dear CCP Delegate Zero,

Seems like you are unable to adress your customers issues, or even notice them. Can I have a contact to your manager, supervisor or anybody above your paygrade? You were clearly told to stick to the crap you made, I want to contact the person who told you that.

There is simply no point talking with you, you will just repeat some yadda yadda how great everything is (or will be after 10 patches), when players use this failed system on everyday basis and get irrated.

You buy a car, and on delivery it appears that windscreen is painted white. You complain that you can't see much. Dealer tells you that in two weeks they will change the paint to half transparent, and paint only half of windscreen.

"Why can't you give me clear windscreen, like in my previous car"
Dealer says "Because thats what we decided and we're gonna continue this way" and turns around and closes his office doors behind him, leaving you outside with you car.

You get me?

I see no reason not to rollback this update after having this kind of feedback. Sticking to it is just a sign of ego size of Mount Everest and being certain that you are right. Always. And if not, check my previous sentence. I suggest landing from these clouds between people you serve and listening to them, as service provider should. You owe them respect, because of them you're getting paid every month.

Seriously, why don't you want to roll it back? Do you know how you look like? How old are you? 14???
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#615 - 2014-05-16 03:19:20 UTC
Please, CCP, for the love of all that is holy, please do not listen to the users on what the UI should look like. I bring you the first rule of usability:

http://www.nngroup.com/articles/first-rule-of-usability-dont-listen-to-users/

Putting my UX hat on, the tooltips will be good for the NPE because despite the fact that existing players know what a station is, new players won't and having that show up is good for new players. You can expand this to all sorts of things.

Existing players, please don't presume that putting tooltips on things is trying to insult you. You're all super hardcore and the tooltips aren't saying otherwise. The blocking of things in space and the loss of overview information is something that needs to be address, but calling for everything to be removed or rolled back isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen (again UX hat on).

So please, CCP, iterate away. Deal with the issues at hand and continue to improve the client. It's certainly going to mean that when I try and get people to play, I'm not going to have to answer a never-ending sequence of questions that the UI really should already tell them.

And finally, for all the players complaining about the overview telling you it's a station, if the name of something in the overview is something like Xxx Trade Hub and the Type is Xxx Hub, and the symbol is a square, how is a new player supposed to automatically know that that item is a station? For those claiming that CCP didn't think about the play experience, it's just about as bad to presume that every player knows what every symbol is.
Marcel Brinalle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#616 - 2014-05-16 03:28:51 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
The blocking of things in space and the loss of overview information is something that needs to be address, but calling for everything to be removed or rolled back isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen


And here is where you are totally wrong. I'm not saying the idea is wrong, I's saying this update is failed. This update should be rolled back and not introduced until issues are resolved. This is how any professional company would deal with it.
Oraac Ensor
#617 - 2014-05-16 03:49:58 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Putting my UX hat on, the tooltips will be good for the NPE because despite the fact that existing players know what a station is, new players won't and having that show up is good for new players.
Of course they will - they learn that within a hour of entering the game.

Quintessen wrote:
And finally, for all the players complaining about the overview telling you it's a station, if the name of something in the overview is something like Xxx Trade Hub and the Type is Xxx Hub, and the symbol is a square, how is a new player supposed to automatically know that that item is a station?
Because he learns that in his first hour of play.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#618 - 2014-05-16 03:52:03 UTC
Marcel Brinalle wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
The blocking of things in space and the loss of overview information is something that needs to be address, but calling for everything to be removed or rolled back isn't going to happen and shouldn't happen


And here is where you are totally wrong. I'm not saying the idea is wrong, I's saying this update is failed. This update should be rolled back and not introduced until issues are resolved. This is how any professional company would deal with it.


I'm a software architect specializing in UI, among other things, that has worked for a lot of major companies -- professional companies -- and this kind of thing happens all the time. It's not pretty, it's not desired, but the cost of rollback is usually high enough that unless it's a blocker (e.g. crashing, data corruption, etc.), the stuff sits out there and a patch is released as soon as possible.

You have to measure the cost of fixing the problem compared to the cost of rolling it back. Rollbacks are usually very expensive on live systems like EVE. Which is why it doesn't happen very often. In fact, I'm not sure it's ever happened in EVE.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#619 - 2014-05-16 03:53:11 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Putting my UX hat on, the tooltips will be good for the NPE because despite the fact that existing players know what a station is, new players won't and having that show up is good for new players.
Of course they will - they learn that within a hour of entering the game.

Quintessen wrote:
And finally, for all the players complaining about the overview telling you it's a station, if the name of something in the overview is something like Xxx Trade Hub and the Type is Xxx Hub, and the symbol is a square, how is a new player supposed to automatically know that that item is a station?
Because he learns that in his first hour of play.


They've already mentioned they want to get rid of the tutorials -- the thing that teaches them in the first hour. So a precursor to that is tooltips that tell you what the tutorial no longer will.
Oraac Ensor
#620 - 2014-05-16 03:55:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Quintessen wrote:

They've already mentioned they want to get rid of the tutorials -- the thing that teaches them in the first hour.

Link, please.

What they've talked about is improving the NPE, and getting rid of the tutorials certainly won't do that. To achieve that they need to EXPAND the tutorials.