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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2014-05-15 22:42:41 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gavin Dax wrote:
And Tippia, I did respond directly to Fozzie as you will see if you scroll down in that thread.
What?

That was me. I outraged on your behalf directly at the Dev because you are too busy here waving courgettes at each other. I'm sure he'll be along, anytime....

Nar' alk Breau wrote:
The sense of entitlement is deserved. It's deserved because the time was invested and the person has earned that right. Someone who hasn't invested the time is getting skills that they normally wouldn't acquire as fast if this action wasn't happening. It's not that you're worse off, it's that you invested the time that someone else didn't. Time is one of the primary investments in eve and this action makes gives a greater gain to the person who hasn't invested the same amount of time.
Funny how those of us who did Dessie/BC 5 on various alts AND swooped in to get the pre-reqs in for CS before the changes, were not exploiting the change at all at the expense of anyone else, i.e. later players, or those who couldnt afford to multi-train. Alternatively, those of us who did max drone skills for SCs then saw the ship restricted to FBs ~still not all that bothered~ omfg at your 500k sp. We've had something like 150k in free sp for server outages in the last year or so.

I'd say something really abusive but then mods will scrub me, which I perversely enjoy.

STOP CRYING HERE AND GO SHOUT AT DEVS, GO ON Arrow

Maybe they are implementing this change to combat Malcanis' law. This is why NPC scrub alts should not be allowed to create legislation.



Shhh... The adults are talking.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#342 - 2014-05-15 22:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
I would have to disagree. For 10 + years eve has used time based training for skills.
This isn't about skill training. This is about skill alterations and what kind of assurances you're being given when that happens.

The key principle is that you keep what you had, and if you get more in the process then hey, good for you. Only if the ability you trained for is outright removed do you get the time back (which is rarely needed since you often end up with more than you trained for).

Quote:
If you reduce the significance of time in eve, the game would fall apart.
Considering how many times (and at what scale) it has already happened, apparently not.
The game didn't fall apart with the Destroyer and Battlecruiser changes, or with the hull progression alterations, and compared to those, this change to make the drone skills make sense is a rounding error.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2014-05-15 22:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nar' alk Breau
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
I would have to disagree. For 10 + years eve has used time based training for skills.
This isn't about skill training. This is about skill alterations and what kind of assurances you're being given when that happens.


Nar' alk Breau:
This is merely a statement to emphasize the importance of time in eve.






The key principle is that you keep what you had, and if you get more in the process then hey, good for you. Only if the ability you trained for is outright removed do you get the time back (which is rarely needed since you often end up with more than you trained for).

Nar' alk Breau:
It is one of the key principals. Not the key principal.






Quote:
If you reduce the significance of time in eve, the game would fall apart.
Considering how many times (and at what scale) it has already happened, apparently not.
The game didn't fall apart with the Destroyer and Battlecruiser changes, or with the hull progression alterations, and compared to those, this change to make the drone skills make sense is a rounding error.


Metaphorically speaking.

I can see I'm going to have to get more familiar with the edits.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#344 - 2014-05-15 22:53:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
Walter Hart White wrote:
[...]

What do YOU not get? If we get 512k reimbursement, then the give out would be equal. SDO V guys earn 512k+256k skill points after change. People with CDO V and SDO V get only 256k skill points. Does that seem fair to you? No. It shouldnt. That's why you refund 512k and both parties have gained 256k+512k skill points total. Everyone is happy. Except you I guess?


Giving people who have trained CDO V an additional 512k SP would make it even more unfair to new players who have to train the skills after the change.
So you're just selfish. You don't care if other people are at a bigger disadvantage as long as you get your more SP.
Marsha Mallow
#345 - 2014-05-15 22:54:58 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Shhh... The adults are talking.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Jane Shapperd wrote:
So what about those who trained both skills Combat Drone Operation & Scout Drone Operation to 5

will they be compensated for training combat drone operation ?

as if they didn't train combat drone operation to 5 , they will get both new skills to level 5


Nope, because there's nothing to be compensated for.

If you have either Combat Drone Operation or Scout Drone Operation (or both) trained to level 5 you get the maximum possible ranks of the new skills.


Bedtime.

Stop arguing in circles or sack up and challenge the Devs until they concede the point. The rest is just debate/perspective and nothing is final until the patch hits anyway.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#346 - 2014-05-15 22:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
This is merely a statement to emphasize the importance of time in eve.
That just makes it completely irrelevant.

Quote:
It is one of the key principals. No the key principal.
No, it's pretty much the key principle, considering how consistently it has been applied now.

Quote:
Metaphorically speaking.
It wouldn't fall apart metaphorically either. Perhaps you meant “hysterically hyperbolically” (i.e. not at all, but that won't stop people from ignorantly saying that it will)?

Really, Riyria got it right in one: this is just people being selfish. They're crying about how “unfair” it is that some people are being given more than they are, without even commenting on the unfairness that they are themselves being given more than some, and their “solution” is to increase that particular unfairness… Ugh
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#347 - 2014-05-15 23:02:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
beakerax wrote:
I wonder if the post that kicked off this bizarre discussion specifically mentioned it was people without Battlecruisers V or without Command Ships at the time of the patch who got the short shrift.
Doesn't particularly matter. The point is that Command Ships was never a factor to begin with. No particular advantage was given to “older players (say, those with Command Ships trained)”, and command ships were not in any way grandfathered in.

Earlier you agreed that players who were able to train Command Ships I pre-patch were potentially able to fly ships post-patch that they had never skilled for (how is that not an advantage?), and having Battlecruisers V completed before the patch was also clearly advantageous.

You can argue that there was no better way to go about performing the change if want, but those two things definitely happened.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#348 - 2014-05-15 23:03:49 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Earlier you agreed that players who were able to train Command Ships I pre-patch were potentially able to fly ships post-patch that they had never skilled for (how is that not an advantage?), and having Battlecruisers V completed before the patch was also clearly advantageous.

You can argue that there was no better way to go about performing the change if want, but those two things definitely happened.
…and?
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#349 - 2014-05-15 23:04:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
This is merely a statement to emphasize the importance of time in eve.
That just makes it completely irrelevant.

Quote:
It is one of the key principals. No the key principal.
No, it's pretty much the key principle, considering how consistently it has been applied now.

Quote:
Metaphorically speaking.
It wouldn't fall apart metaphorically either. Perhaps you meant “hysterically hyperbolically” (i.e. not at all, but that won't stop people from ignorantly saying that it will)?


Tippia, nitpicking apart my forum etiquette is irrelevant. Time is one of the core elements of eve. Regardless of how consistently "keeping what you had" has been applied or equipment change, even more so, time has been a major factor. Metaphorically was correct. Obviously the game wouldn't complete derail but on the other hand if changed enough items in eve from a time perspective, who knows what would happen.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#350 - 2014-05-15 23:09:20 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Time is one of the core elements of eve.
…and that's why you never lose any in these changes: since the “if you could use it” principle is in effect. Only if there is no possibility at all to keep what you had — if the fundamental mechanic behind a skill is removed, for instance — do you get that time back in the form of freely distributable SP.

But the corollary to that is still that, if you end up with more than you had, then good for you. Free time from CCP — yay!
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2014-05-15 23:10:22 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Shhh... The adults are talking.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Jane Shapperd wrote:
So what about those who trained both skills Combat Drone Operation & Scout Drone Operation to 5

will they be compensated for training combat drone operation ?

as if they didn't train combat drone operation to 5 , they will get both new skills to level 5


Nope, because there's nothing to be compensated for.

If you have either Combat Drone Operation or Scout Drone Operation (or both) trained to level 5 you get the maximum possible ranks of the new skills.


Bedtime.

Stop arguing in circles or sack up and challenge the Devs until they concede the point. The rest is just debate/perspective and nothing is final until the patch hits anyway.


Debating in the forums is one way for the Devs to see the different points that people have to offer.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2014-05-15 23:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Shhh... The adults are talking.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Jane Shapperd wrote:
So what about those who trained both skills Combat Drone Operation & Scout Drone Operation to 5

will they be compensated for training combat drone operation ?

as if they didn't train combat drone operation to 5 , they will get both new skills to level 5


Nope, because there's nothing to be compensated for.

If you have either Combat Drone Operation or Scout Drone Operation (or both) trained to level 5 you get the maximum possible ranks of the new skills.


Bedtime.

Stop arguing in circles or sack up and challenge the Devs until they concede the point. The rest is just debate/perspective and nothing is final until the patch hits anyway.


+1


The interesting thing here is how many people see SP as some sort of competition that you can "win" .

I also suspect part of the problem is the free SP given away in the past. The 10 million or so free SP you could feasibly pick up in the destroyer/battlecruiser rebalance almost doubled some newer players effective SP and seems to have created large expectations. That is despite the fact that people had the same effective in-game abilities and access after the rebalance as before.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2014-05-15 23:20:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Time is one of the core elements of eve.
…and that's why you never lose any in these changes: since the “if you could use it” principle is in effect. Only if there is no possibility at all to keep what you had — if the fundamental mechanic behind a skill is removed, for instance — do you get that time back in the form of freely distributable SP.

But the corollary to that is still that, if you end up with more than you had, then good for you. Free time from CCP — yay!


I'm not debating any loss. I'm debating the merit of awarding the same skill points to party A who has less time invested than party B. Skill points equate to time as far as training in eve is concerned.

It's not that I don't see where you're coming from. "We're all getting more than we had before". But if CCP were to give everyone 200m skill points tomorrow, then everyone would be ahead. Someone already has 200m skill points? Ok, let's make it 500m skill points. Why would people be mad? They all have more than they had before. It's because the other people got there without investing the time.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#354 - 2014-05-15 23:23:59 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
I'm debating the merit of awarding the same skill points to party A who has less time invested than party B. Skill points equate to time as far as training in eve is concerned.
The merit is obvious: no-one loses what they have trained for.

Quote:
But if CCP were to give everyone 200m skill points tomorrow
…then they would have to present a very good reason for it, like they have in this case. As it is, no change short of removing skills altogether would warrant that kind of hand-out (and would, as a bonus, render the hand-out pointless).
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#355 - 2014-05-15 23:31:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and?

And nothing, really. As far as I can tell, this Command Ships thing as been an irrelevant exercise in pedantry.

ggGD
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2014-05-15 23:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Time is one of the core elements of eve.
…and that's why you never lose any in these changes: since the “if you could use it” principle is in effect. Only if there is no possibility at all to keep what you had — if the fundamental mechanic behind a skill is removed, for instance — do you get that time back in the form of freely distributable SP.

But the corollary to that is still that, if you end up with more than you had, then good for you. Free time from CCP — yay!


I'm not debating any loss. I'm debating the merit of awarding the same skills points to party A who has less time invested than party B. Skill points equate to time as far as training in eve is concerned.

It's not that I don't see where you're coming from. "We're all getting more than we had before". But if CCP were to give everyone 200m skill points tomorrow, then everyone would be ahead. Someone already has 200m skill points? Ok, let's make it 500m skill points. Why would people be mad? They all have more than they had before. It's because the other people got there without investing the time.


But time is not an issue in Eve. It takes 18 years or more to get close to all skills so no one single character can ever "win" an SP race. Specialist alt characters are almost essential, the player with a single character that trains everything forever is seriously disadvantaged. Which is why the game provides you with two free alts on your main account.

There is also the character bazaar that lets you buy a character with considerably more SP than your current one. If you really want to race ahead in SP - just build a character that specialises in making ISK and then buy yourself the pretrained advanced character you want and sell off your original.

Unlike other games there is no "street cred" for high SP.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2014-05-15 23:32:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
I'm debating the merit of awarding the same skill points to party A who has less time invested than party B. Skill points equate to time as far as training in eve is concerned.
The merit is obvious: no-one loses what they have trained for.

Quote:
But if CCP were to give everyone 200m skill points tomorrow
…then they would have to present a very good reason for it, like they have in this case. As it is, no change short of removing skills altogether would warrant that kind of hand-out (and would, as a bonus, render the hand-out pointless).


I'm pretty sure that if something like that happened there would be a LOT of people who would find no reason good enough. As it stands now, this reason is good enough because the amount of skill points involved isn't 200m.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2014-05-15 23:42:30 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
Walter Hart White wrote:
[...]

What do YOU not get? If we get 512k reimbursement, then the give out would be equal. SDO V guys earn 512k+256k skill points after change. People with CDO V and SDO V get only 256k skill points. Does that seem fair to you? No. It shouldnt. That's why you refund 512k and both parties have gained 256k+512k skill points total. Everyone is happy. Except you I guess?


Giving people who have trained CDO V an additional 512k SP would make it even more unfair to new players who have to train the skills after the change.
So you're just selfish. You don't care if other people are at a bigger disadvantage as long as you get your more SP.


Not selfish at all. If you're talking about existing new players, they can start training the skills now and get the relevant points back. If you're talking about future players who don't even have an account, that's over reaching. Prior to me joining the game, I don't begrudge anyone who got free ships or otherwise, because I didn't have a subscription.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#359 - 2014-05-15 23:52:24 UTC
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Not selfish at all. If you're talking about existing new players, they can start training the skills now and get the relevant points back.
You're assuming that they want the skills, which they obviously aren't since they aren't training them. So they'd just end up with the exact same 512k SP they would have gotten anyway.

No, it's entirely selfish. They want more SP because someone else is getting more SP than they do. The fact that they get more SP as well is already unfair by the same standard. If they got even more, that's just more unfair, but that doesn't bother them, now does it? It's only when it's “unfair” to them that a “reimbursement” (read: additional free hand-out) is in order.

It really doesn't get any more selfish than that: “someone else got more so I deserve more and screw everyone else”.
Nar' alk Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2014-05-15 23:53:55 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nar' alk Breau wrote:
Time is one of the core elements of eve.
…and that's why you never lose any in these changes: since the “if you could use it” principle is in effect. Only if there is no possibility at all to keep what you had — if the fundamental mechanic behind a skill is removed, for instance — do you get that time back in the form of freely distributable SP.

But the corollary to that is still that, if you end up with more than you had, then good for you. Free time from CCP — yay!


I'm not debating any loss. I'm debating the merit of awarding the same skills points to party A who has less time invested than party B. Skill points equate to time as far as training in eve is concerned.

It's not that I don't see where you're coming from. "We're all getting more than we had before". But if CCP were to give everyone 200m skill points tomorrow, then everyone would be ahead. Someone already has 200m skill points? Ok, let's make it 500m skill points. Why would people be mad? They all have more than they had before. It's because the other people got there without investing the time.


But time is not an issue in Eve. It takes 18 years or more to get close to all skills so no one single character can ever "win" an SP race. Specialist alt characters are almost essential, the player with a single character that trains everything forever is seriously disadvantaged. Which is why the game provides you with two free alts on your main account.

There is also the character bazaar that lets you buy a character with considerably more SP than your current one. If you really want to race ahead in SP - just build a character that specialises in making ISK and then buy yourself the pretrained advanced character you want and sell off your original.

Unlike other games there is no "street cred" for high SP.


I would have to disagree. Time is an issue in eve, it is essential to eve. Time is what defines a character via their skill points. You mention the character bazaar, why does it exist? Because there are characters available with more skill points or different skill points than you. Someone invested the time into training that character to a particular level of skill points and then decided to sell the character to recap their investment.

This is why giving skill points to someone who hasn't invested the time is flawed (at least in my opinion).

In eve