EVE General Discussion

Actually, I think what it boils down to is someone who invested time into lvl 5 SDO and lvl 5 CDO is getting exactly the same as someone who only invested time in just lvl 5 SDO. I think that's what is getting under peoples skin...

We must be using that term in different ways.


Erm, yes skills were given. About 5 months 4 months worth of skills.


I never claimed that it was.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with either the substance of my first post or the topic of the thread, so I'm going to let this technical silliness lie now.

Bwahaha.... Er no.
CS Pilots did not gain a single Sp for having the CS skill trained.
Obviously anyone who was using CS actually would have had BC V so gained from that but that's an independent change.
Additionally new CS pilots no longer need to train Cruiser V, or Logi, or HAC's or a bunch of other utterly unrelated skills.
If you followed at the time the main complaint around CS was that it was too easy for someone new to get into a CS now since it was way way faster to train to CS after the change rather than before.

So you're not getting the extra SP everyone else is? How do you know this when the patch isn't even out yet? Have you looked into the patch transition scripts to see that your name is on a list of characters to exclude?

You trained for the prerequisite time to collect the 768k SP. For this, you got the expected 768k SP. That SP is being turned into 1024k SP. In other words, the money and time you spent to train that character was turned into exactly the amount of SP you'd expect from that timeframe, and then some. If we just look at CDO V, and the 512k SP collected for it, you're being given 256k SP — 50% — more than you actually trained for.

That people are arbitrarily being given double bonuses for no good reason whatsoever. You are getting 256k extra SP. Why should you be given 512k more? You have lost nothing — you have only gained from the transition. The disadvantage is that you are already, somewhat unfairly, being pushed ahead of players who haven't trained these skills as high, so pushing you even further ahead is not really a sensible thing to do.

What?

Not for command ships, no.
CSes as a whole weren't really grand-fathered in — they just cleverly altered the prerequisites in such a way that what you already had meant that you could keep using them.

If anything, the BC and command ship change just further illustrates how CCP has no problems letting more people gain access to equipment and how letting people keep what they have is a far higher priority. They got rid of the silly HAC/Logi prereqs for the two subclasses and just made CS work like any other T2 class skill: a hull skill at V + a T2 role skill at I. Some who had never bothered to get those unrelated ship classes could now use CS (if they had trained the skill before), and that was all good because it was just a much better system.

Pretty much by definition, a sense of entitlement is never deserved.

…and the pay-off of that investment does not change: they still get exactly what they trained for, and even get pushed further ahead of the untrained masses. They are being given free time that they didn't actually invest to get. The notion that they are somehow entitled to even more time is just silly.

It is when it comes to doing significant changes to equipment prerequisites.

The “if you could use it before” principle has become a core tenet in skill switcharoos, and people getting access to more than they had before is just an accidental bonus. If you don't lose any abilities, there is nothing to reimburse because… well… you didn't lose any abilities. Keeping what you had is the way EVE is structured.

In fact, it is exactly this principle that has given rise to the kind of patch speculation people have attempted (and failed at) here.

Just because the amount of time invested is minute doesn't mean that any kind of entitlement is deserved, especially not when that investment pays of so handsomely as it does in this case.

I wonder if the post that kicked off this bizarre discussion specifically mentioned it was people without Battlecruisers V or without Command Ships at the time of the patch who got the short shrift.

What's that? It did ?

But it's ok for pilots who haven't trained CDO to get 25% drone damage (or have any difference negated after the patch) "for no good reason"? Why aren't you arguing against that so vehemently? I agree with your point that the current transition method also isn't fair to future players, but that's not what this thread is about.

Do you not see that if the training times involved here were 6 months or a year, CCP would without question reimburse pilots?

Doesn't particularly matter. The point is that Command Ships was never a factor to begin with. No particular advantage was given to “older players (say, those with Command Ships trained)”, and command ships were not in any way grandfathered in.

Just one thing: pilots who haven't trained CDO don't get 25% drone damage for no good reason.

Pilots who have trained SDO to V get the 25% bonus from the new skills that they earn by having already unlocked T2 drones. And yes, it's ok for them to get that.

Because it's not an accurate description of what's going to happen.

Why would they when they still wouldn't have lost anything under the same circumstances?

Good news: hand-outs don't particularly need to be equal. They just need to fulfil the condition that you don't lose anything in the process.

SDO guys don't lose their T2 drones, and CDO guys don't lose their bonuses. Yes, seems fair. What seems ridiculously unfair is that you should get a “refund” for having being given 256k SP and not losing anything. By that logic, the SDO V guys should be given 1.5M SP as a refund for the 768k SP they're receiving.