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How to get people to want to put a rorqual in belts and anomalies
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Zalbrak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-05-13 20:29:36 UTC
Who would risk a billion+ ISK ship in a belt / anomaly with no ability to warp or jump away with the distinct possibility of a fast ship bringing a cyno onto you?

Simple (probably OP in some situation however) fix

Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core

How would this break non-mining situations?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2014-05-13 20:42:41 UTC
You know there is a cheap (ish) deplopyable that can do this already... right?

Better idea... bring the Rorqual in-line with carrier stats and abilities ... with the industrial core giving the same bonuses as Triage mode.

With a small squad of combat-ready Procurers or Skiffs it can hold its own against a small gang of dedicated combat ships.

How did you Veterans start?
Zalbrak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-13 21:10:54 UTC
I actually agree that triage or similar would be an improvement, but you also don't see triage carriers in belts either.

My hope is that CCP will give sufficient enticement for people to risk one in belts etc, then they can take mining links out of POSes (and on-grid if/when general links get changed to on-grid)
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-05-13 21:15:57 UTC
just kill the damn indy core already, that is 90% of the problem.
Zalbrak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-05-13 21:43:25 UTC
Another idea:

Increase size of ore hold to be similar to JF ( In total with fleet hanger and cargo etc )
When deployed, miners on grid (and in fleet) drop directly into rorqual, not their host ship

I'm don't really care what is changed, just so long as it starts to be rational to put a rorq in a belt
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-05-13 23:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
The idea of a capital mining ship was floated (by myself, and probably others) last year, but the general thinking was 'nobody is going to willingly take a capital ship into a belt.' Since CCP actually do want to see rorquals in belts, it's going to have to be pretty awesome to entice people to do so. Miners have wanted some endgame ships for them, and this is an opportunity to deliver.

Make the Rorqual into a proper capital mining ship.

Changed Role
* Remove the command bonuses - the orca can fill the command link role (and might even do with a tiny buff in this regard).
* It can use either strip miners or super-heavy mining drones (carrier-like) to pull in ore. The drones will need to be created by CCP, whereas strips are already available, so this is an easier change.
* Give the rorqual 1.5x the yield a hulk can pull in as a baseline. Before you say 'that'll crash the market!' consider;
- It's a capital ship which sits in a belt. It basically has a 'hot drop me!' sign attached to it as factory fitting.
- It takes a long time to make enough money from a rorqual loss, even with 1.5x hulk yield. 1 loss puts you back billions of isk.
- It will boost null and lowsec production (but mostly null), improving all industry for these areas thanks to increased local mineral supply.
* Make the Industrial core double its mining output, at the cost of locking it in place for 5 minutes at a time.

Protection
Even with the above changes people will still be reluctant to take it into belts without some greater protection.
* While in Excavation Mode (you like that? Cool) the Rorqual gains increased shield boosting similar to a dreadnaught in siege mode.
* Immunity to Ewar, much like a supercarrier. I actually don't like this option, as I don't think supers should have it either, but it's something to consider. Failing that, +10 warp core strength would suffice to allow it to ignore stray interceptors.

So that's the direction I think it should head in. Yes, it's possible that the miners who have 10 accounts with hulks at the moment would switch up to 10 rorquals and eat all of the ore, but imagine if they get hotdropped... oh my Pirate

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#7 - 2014-05-14 00:57:06 UTC
I actually built a Rorqual in our WH to compress ore for hauling to market.......about 3 months before I saw the post about compression arrays.

Yes I am sad.

However..... I don't think that there is any possible buff to it that would EVER encourage me to take it out of the POS, that is not so ridiculously OP in low/null that said buff would ever make it in to game.

Such as the mini force field idea, or carrier level defenses.

If mining boosts needed to be on grid, for me at least, the farthest I would go is an Orca, and that is not likely.

The only buff that would ever make me take it in to a wh belt is if it gave both warp scram and interdiction immunity to the entire fleet on grid. Oh and while I'm dreaming, some massive never going to happen buff to shields/resists/align time......
You get the idea.


And that's not going to happen, even if they made it so said buff only affected industrial ships. (barges/exhumers/haulers)
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2014-05-14 02:35:11 UTC
People regularly take much bigger risks than just fielding a Rorqual in a belt for small rewards.

If you do not believe me, buy 80 million units of Trit in a trade hub (only fits in a freighter), and post a collateralized courier contract to move it and 2 PLEX with a 10b collateral and a 200m payout to haul it to a different hub.

That's a risk of 10.4b (10b for the collateral, 0.4b for the freighter loss after insurance) that involves flying a ship that will show PLEX on a cargo scan through Uedama and Niarja. And people do these contracts for 200m.


If people take risks like that, they will risk a Rorqual (1.4b after insurance) in a belt if there are relevant rewards.


As for what sensible rewards might be - I think the ability to meaningfully mine itself (120-200% of Hulk yield), alongside on-site compression, a compressed ore special hold, and Orca-calibre boosts would do the trick.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2014-05-15 19:26:57 UTC
Copy-and-pasting into yet another Rorqual thread.

Last thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4585679#post4585679

With these changes, the Rorqual stands a chance to escape:
* EWAR immunity. You need a HIC or a bubble to prevent it from jumping out. [Blops-proof]
* At least Orca-level mining link bonus with the Industrial Core inactive. [Not self-pointed.]

Change Rorqual from:
5% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level when in deployed mode
to
3% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level [Orca-class bonus.]
2% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level when in deployed mode

It is also small buff from 25% to 26.5% for the sake of whole number bonuses.

* 50% reduction in Cynosural Field Generator duration. [The point of a cavalry is to extract.]

Give the Rorqual the ability to stand its ground:
* 7.5% bonus to fleet members' maximum structure hitpoints per level of Capital Industrial Ships.
* 100% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level of Capital Industrial Ships.
* 10% bonus to drone tracking per level of Capital Industrial Ships. [WAG]
* 20% bonus to drone MWD velocity per level of Capital Industrial Ships. [WAG]
* Increase the size of the drone bay. It needs to hold more drones (even with the HP bonus), and a variety of drones.

Give the Rorqual a reasonable chance of survival with the Industrial Core active:
* 75% bonus to hull resists. [My math may be wrong, but I was aiming for 90% with a DCU II.]
* 30% bonus to shield resists.
* 100% bonus to local shield boosting amount.
* 50% reduction to local shield booster capacitor use.
* Industrial Core cycle time reduced to one minute.
* Heavy water usage reduction, or elimination.
and
* 56% reprocessing facilities [2% better than an Intensive Reprocessing Array.]

Other:
* Additional high-slots: 3 mining links + capital tractor beam + capital shield transporter + cyno + utility.
* Expanded corporate hangar.
* Expanded ship hangar, or re-purposed for general ships.
* Expanded ore hangar.

Just throwing these out there:
* New module: Industrial Bridge Generator I. Can bridge: Industrial, Mining Frigate, Mining Barge, Exhumer, Transport, Freighter.
* Expanded fuel bay. [For bridging.]
The Rorqual is a mining fleet vessel, so it should be able to move mining fleets around.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#10 - 2014-05-15 20:10:42 UTC
Zalbrak wrote:
Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core

Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped.

No.
Zalbrak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-05-15 20:15:30 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Zalbrak wrote:
Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core

Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped.

No.


How is that different from drop mobile cyno inhibitor out of carrier fleet bay?

If necessary tweak the heavy water usage to have a similar cost per hour
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#12 - 2014-05-15 20:18:25 UTC
Galphii wrote:
The idea of a capital mining ship was floated (by myself, and probably others) last year, but the general thinking was 'nobody is going to willingly take a capital ship into a belt.' Since CCP actually do want to see rorquals in belts, it's going to have to be pretty awesome to entice people to do so. Miners have wanted some endgame ships for them, and this is an opportunity to deliver.

Make the Rorqual into a proper capital mining ship.

Changed Role
* Remove the command bonuses - the orca can fill the command link role (and might even do with a tiny buff in this regard).
* It can use either strip miners or super-heavy mining drones (carrier-like) to pull in ore. The drones will need to be created by CCP, whereas strips are already available, so this is an easier change.
* Give the rorqual 1.5x the yield a hulk can pull in as a baseline. Before you say 'that'll crash the market!' consider;
- It's a capital ship which sits in a belt. It basically has a 'hot drop me!' sign attached to it as factory fitting.
- It takes a long time to make enough money from a rorqual loss, even with 1.5x hulk yield. 1 loss puts you back billions of isk.
- It will boost null and lowsec production (but mostly null), improving all industry for these areas thanks to increased local mineral supply.
* Make the Industrial core double its mining output, at the cost of locking it in place for 5 minutes at a time.

Protection
Even with the above changes people will still be reluctant to take it into belts without some greater protection.
* While in Excavation Mode (you like that? Cool) the Rorqual gains increased shield boosting similar to a dreadnaught in siege mode.
* Immunity to Ewar, much like a supercarrier. I actually don't like this option, as I don't think supers should have it either, but it's something to consider. Failing that, +10 warp core strength would suffice to allow it to ignore stray interceptors.

So that's the direction I think it should head in. Yes, it's possible that the miners who have 10 accounts with hulks at the moment would switch up to 10 rorquals and eat all of the ore, but imagine if they get hotdropped... oh my Pirate


I actually like this, make the rorq a cap miner. Lots of people want one, you could even just give it cap strip miner that have more yield then standard strips if need be. It would make it more useable.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#13 - 2014-05-15 20:45:40 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Galphii wrote:
The idea of a capital mining ship was floated (by myself, and probably others) last year, but the general thinking was 'nobody is going to willingly take a capital ship into a belt.' Since CCP actually do want to see rorquals in belts, it's going to have to be pretty awesome to entice people to do so. Miners have wanted some endgame ships for them, and this is an opportunity to deliver.

Make the Rorqual into a proper capital mining ship.

Changed Role
* Remove the command bonuses - the orca can fill the command link role (and might even do with a tiny buff in this regard).
* It can use either strip miners or super-heavy mining drones (carrier-like) to pull in ore. The drones will need to be created by CCP, whereas strips are already available, so this is an easier change.
* Give the rorqual 1.5x the yield a hulk can pull in as a baseline. Before you say 'that'll crash the market!' consider;
- It's a capital ship which sits in a belt. It basically has a 'hot drop me!' sign attached to it as factory fitting.
- It takes a long time to make enough money from a rorqual loss, even with 1.5x hulk yield. 1 loss puts you back billions of isk.
- It will boost null and lowsec production (but mostly null), improving all industry for these areas thanks to increased local mineral supply.
* Make the Industrial core double its mining output, at the cost of locking it in place for 5 minutes at a time.

Protection
Even with the above changes people will still be reluctant to take it into belts without some greater protection.
* While in Excavation Mode (you like that? Cool) the Rorqual gains increased shield boosting similar to a dreadnaught in siege mode.
* Immunity to Ewar, much like a supercarrier. I actually don't like this option, as I don't think supers should have it either, but it's something to consider. Failing that, +10 warp core strength would suffice to allow it to ignore stray interceptors.

So that's the direction I think it should head in. Yes, it's possible that the miners who have 10 accounts with hulks at the moment would switch up to 10 rorquals and eat all of the ore, but imagine if they get hotdropped... oh my Pirate


I actually like this, make the rorq a cap miner. Lots of people want one, you could even just give it cap strip miner that have more yield then standard strips if need be. It would make it more useable.

Tentatively, I would be in favor of this. It is, after all, a capital industrial and since the Orca already has the huge cargo capacity this would be an interesting change.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-05-15 22:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
The way I see it, there's already an industrial command ship (Orca) which is cheaper to put on grid (assuming they get around to doing on-grid boosting at some point) so there's no point having a second, slightly better bonused ship that people would be reluctant to put in a belt. Giving the rorqual even bigger command bonuses could be troublesome as it gets multiplied by the number of miners receiving that bonus - converting it into a capital mining ship keeps those bonuses in check (self only) and if the risk vs reward is good enough, people will fly it in belts and good times will be had by all (happy miners getting lots of yield and a big shiny endgame ship, hotdroppers have a big juicy target to hunt away from towers) Blink

Oh and my numbers are very arbitrary. Math people would have to go over it to ensure its as balanced as it can be in that situation.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Axe Coldon
#15 - 2014-05-16 01:33:04 UTC
Zalbrak wrote:
Who would risk a billion+ ISK ship in a belt / anomaly with no ability to warp or jump away with the distinct possibility of a fast ship bringing a cyno onto you?

Simple (probably OP in some situation however) fix

Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core

How would this break non-mining situations?


Any attempt to put rorquals in the belts stationary won't work. We would be fooling ourselves if we think we wouldn't get hot dropped. Its an expensive ship About 2x a carrier. And look to the lengths people go to to kill carrier.

It's just too expensive to risk.

Any attempt to make it viable stationary in a belt would make it over powered.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#16 - 2014-05-16 01:48:34 UTC
Make the Rorqual similar to a one of the new deployables in that it takes some, time to activate the industrial core but once activated the Rorqual gets a (duration tbd) reinforcement timer if a certain amount of damage is done to it. The ship is stuck in the belt and powerless but invulnerable for a period of time. Going into reinforced would begin consuming jump fuel making it less and less likely that the Rorqual could cyno out even if it's shields are repaired.

This would give attackers a good shot at killing a Rorqual that isn't adequatelyl supported but at the same time it would give the defenders a chance to save their asset.

The end result would be good fights regardless.

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Starfall Achura
Angels of Achura
#17 - 2014-05-16 05:30:43 UTC
Drone 16 wrote:
Make the Rorqual similar to a one of the new deployables in that it takes some, time to activate the industrial core but once activated the Rorqual gets a (duration tbd) reinforcement timer if a certain amount of damage is done to it. The ship is stuck in the belt and powerless but invulnerable for a period of time. Going into reinforced would begin consuming jump fuel making it less and less likely that the Rorqual could cyno out even if it's shields are repaired.

This would give attackers a good shot at killing a Rorqual that isn't adequatelyl supported but at the same time it would give the defenders a chance to save their asset.

The end result would be good fights regardless.



An interesting idea, it's certainly different I wonder if CCP would consider this. Seems like another to both revive a dying ship and promote good fights
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#18 - 2014-05-16 06:04:20 UTC
Zalbrak wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Zalbrak wrote:
Add a cyno-inhibitor effect to the industrial core

Drop Roq with carrier squad (as people do now), light core, never get counter dropped.

No.


How is that different from drop mobile cyno inhibitor out of carrier fleet bay?

If necessary tweak the heavy water usage to have a similar cost per hour

A cyno jam takes 2 minutes to light and if a counter drop is coming it's happening in those 2 minutes.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
#19 - 2014-05-16 07:05:53 UTC
Crazy idea, Make the Rorq not appear on dscan
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#20 - 2014-05-16 07:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zol Interbottom
Only if it has the core on, I can imagine the horror of battle rorqual fleets.

Especially if they were lying in wait.

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
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