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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#561 - 2014-05-15 15:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
stuff


It seems you guys have selective reading comprehension or you simply don't give a toss what your customers think even when they are almost unanimously telling you they expect to be able to turn this OFF.

Is this the kind of development process we can continue to expect from CCP's new "improved" development cycle?

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Thak Dallocort
Rogues and Destitutes
#562 - 2014-05-15 16:08:39 UTC
I have not explored all of the GUI changes fully to determine if most are good or bad but for exploration of Data/Relic sites it is definitely not for the best in the change. It's challenging enough to hover over and determine which containers are the ones to grab and with the change, the solid based label totally obscures any other container beneath the label that pops up requiring you to go somewhere else on the screen and come back hoping not to pop up the wrong label of the container that is still right next to the one that is unknown.

This needs to be investigated a bit more thoroughly.

Maybe a setting to allow an offset distance by the user would be nice. That way someone could set the distance to their desired level. The offset could be supplemented with a line that extends to the description box so the user at least knows which item is being referenced.

Personally a placeable information console like segment that would list the last object hovered over with a setting for the amount of detail the user wants would be nice. One would hover over an object and the info screen would update dynamically with text only related information such as item, name, etc.

The effort to improve the UI is greatly appreciated but some of this last update was a swing and miss having read some of the above posts.
Oraac Ensor
#563 - 2014-05-15 16:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Doc Fury wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
stuff


There's a distinct lack of an "off" switch mentioned in your reply. Shame on you for not addressing it at all.

It seems you guys have selective reading comprehension or you simply don't give a toss what your customers think even when they are almost unanimously telling you they expect to be able to turn this OFF.

Is this the kind of development process we can continue to expect from CCP's new "improved" development cycle?

Well he did mention it, but in a distinctly unsatisfactory manner:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.
CCP Delegate Zero
C C P
C C P Alliance
#564 - 2014-05-15 16:18:03 UTC
Penny Ernaga wrote:

CCP Delegate Zero, you did notice the smileys in my post, I assume/hope.

I don`t think any of my writing contains anything offensive, abusive, or the like - if it did land that way in your eyes, my apologies.

People give feedback because they care - like I do. Do I have to be all dead serious, sober, and without any emotions behind? That would be pretty strange, it`s a game we`re talking about.


Sure. A sense of humour is very important. I actually appreciated yours.

That aside, a couple of questions were asked about the timing of the most pressing tweaks and fixes: the answer is that we are looking to release the initial set in terms of days. We're certainly not constrained to wait for Kronos.

The current list is in my earlier post.

CCP Delegate Zero | Content Designer - Writer | @CCPDelegateZero

Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#565 - 2014-05-15 16:19:00 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Penny Ernaga wrote:

P.S.: quote from CCP Delegate Zero: "...Moreover, we plan to expand and iterate on tooltips going forward." Shocked Holy cow! Is this a seriously meant threat to us players? Or just some black humor? ...Heaven beware Blink


While it may well be that people who call for the firing of others, fling abusive tosh around, or indeed issue various flavours of threat themselves, merit a threat or two in return, this wasn't a threat.

More of a promise.


sorry, but:

1- you delivered something wich is.....how to phrase it politely....only good for the dumpster
2- you "promise" to iterate on it

== threat

you shall understand that when ppl tell you, during 30 pages over 48h that a feature is BAD, and need either to be rolled back or an ON/OFF switch, something is WRONG and BAD with said feature.

i know you WILL again push that in our throat, thus YOU (understand CCP, not specifically you as a person) are the only one responsible for all the anger.

now there is one easy way to solve this: rollback to previous eve release. simple

those tooltips are deterrent to the basic game-play of EVE wich is space combat, the tooltips make this IMPOSSIBLE.

there is no negotiation here it SHALL go, put it back on SISI (although i, like apparently everyone else, didn't saw it EVER on SISI), and work on it again, THEN once the major issues are solved, go on TQ

you did this for unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, will you EVER learn from your mistakes?

when developing such things, there are 2 mandatory steps:

1- customer shall be able to enable / disable feature
2- feature shall be properly tested

you failed at BOTH.

either you are clearly lacking competences, or you did it on purpose...;don't really know which one is worst, but given the updates, i'd say it was done on purpose, wich is INSULTING your players
Thak Dallocort
Rogues and Destitutes
#566 - 2014-05-15 16:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Thak Dallocort
Thak Dallocort wrote:
I have not explored all of the GUI changes fully to determine if most are good or bad but for exploration of Data/Relic sites it is definitely not for the best in the change. It's challenging enough to hover over and determine which containers are the ones to grab and with the change, the solid based label totally obscures any other container beneath the label that pops up requiring you to go somewhere else on the screen and come back hoping not to pop up the wrong label of the container that is still right next to the one that is unknown.

This needs to be investigated a bit more thoroughly.

Maybe a setting to allow an offset distance by the user would be nice. That way someone could set the distance to their desired level. The offset could be supplemented with a line that extends to the description box so the user at least knows which item is being referenced.

Personally a placeable information console like segment that would list the last object hovered over with a setting for the amount of detail the user wants would be nice. One would hover over an object and the info screen would update dynamically with text only related information such as item, name, etc.

The effort to improve the UI is greatly appreciated but some of this last update was a swing and miss having read some of the above posts.


As an additional thought.


In a placeable information console, you could also place a details button that would bring up the full information page of any said item. That way the brief description console wouldn't be cluttered with the details that is normally found in the full information console.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#567 - 2014-05-15 16:32:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Penny Ernaga wrote:

CCP Delegate Zero, you did notice the smileys in my post, I assume/hope.

I don`t think any of my writing contains anything offensive, abusive, or the like - if it did land that way in your eyes, my apologies.

People give feedback because they care - like I do. Do I have to be all dead serious, sober, and without any emotions behind? That would be pretty strange, it`s a game we`re talking about.


Sure. A sense of humour is very important. I actually appreciated yours.

That aside, a couple of questions were asked about the timing of the most pressing tweaks and fixes: the answer is that we are looking to release the initial set in terms of days. We're certainly not constrained to wait for Kronos.

The current list is in my earlier post.


If you are going to iterate on this wonderful feature, please at least consider to make the new tooltips be button-triggered at least regarding brackets with the old system default. Because new tooltips are downright harmful on brackets, and there's no amount of features that can make them bearable. They are like a stick blocking a steering wheel. You can make it pink and plushy, but it's still blocking the friggin steering wheel.
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#568 - 2014-05-15 16:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Neutrino Sunset
You'd have thought that the company responsible for the boot.ini fiasco (probably the worse deployment bug in the entire history of games software development), Incana and Monoclegate would have learnt at least one or two things in the area of deployment testing and listening to your customers.

However, it's a testament to CPP's terrible reputation for ignoring their customers that I for one am not in the slightest bit surprised to see them turn a deaf ear to the truth that they canot take, namely that the new tooltips (especially the ones in space and on the overview) are absolutely shocking, in some cases game breaking, and no one wants them.

It's also a testament to their reputation for atrocious QA and deployment testing that the tooltips in space which show your corp/alliance ticker (e.g. wrecks) are malformed and have one of the square brackets that's supposed to surround the ticker at the wrong end of the tooltip. It's downright laughable, I test my own company internal only software better than these jokers test crap they release to tens of thousands of paying customers.

I only resubbed a month ago after a 3 year break. But when I saw how CCP treated the players over the forced on scanner overlay I was already in two minds as to whether to stay. Compound that with this slap in the face, an upcoming summer expansion that has almost no content and a change to monthly releases of what's certain to be untested dross and I can't see me sticking around for long.

Never mind, plenty of other good sci-fi games coming out this year.
Clean Protagonist
Southern Cross Monopoly
Flying Dangerous
#569 - 2014-05-15 16:37:30 UTC
My main issue with the tooltips, especially the overview tooltips, is that the vast majority of them present no information. Like you hover over the sun. The overview says "this is the sun".

Hover over a stargate. The overview says "this is a stargate." There is no additional information in the tooltips.

Also, when I hover over a ship on the overview, instead of telling me what corp and alliance the ship is from, it just tells me what kind of ship it is, which is already on the overview.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#570 - 2014-05-15 16:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
I'd like to be able to disable the tooltips please. I'm amazed you think I want or need them after ten years of play.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#571 - 2014-05-15 16:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
stuff


There's a distinct lack of an "off" switch mentioned in your reply. Shame on you for not addressing it at all.

It seems you guys have selective reading comprehension or you simply don't give a toss what your customers think even when they are almost unanimously telling you they expect to be able to turn this OFF.

Is this the kind of development process we can continue to expect from CCP's new "improved" development cycle?

Well he did mention it, but in a distinctly unsatisfactory manner:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.


Thanks for that, my eyes are failing me it seems. Guess I should just go outside and give-up on this.

Sadly, CCP has not learned anything the last few years. They don't seem to grasp that giving customers options is a good thing even when it may bruise a few egos a bit, this is especially troubling when those same customers are simply demanding choice.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Guth'Alak
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2014-05-15 16:57:12 UTC
PLEASE just change it back to the way it was? im an explorer and all i do are relic/date sites. they are just not fun anymore with the new tooltips. i dont even wanna leave the station until its fixed. Cry
Jihada Omanid
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2014-05-15 16:58:02 UTC
As I and others stated before and especially a problem when trying to get the cans in explorer sites:

tooltips are on a big box preventing us from clicking whatever is behind


CryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCryCry
Mag's
Azn Empire
#574 - 2014-05-15 17:00:53 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
stuff


There's a distinct lack of an "off" switch mentioned in your reply. Shame on you for not addressing it at all.

It seems you guys have selective reading comprehension or you simply don't give a toss what your customers think even when they are almost unanimously telling you they expect to be able to turn this OFF.

Is this the kind of development process we can continue to expect from CCP's new "improved" development cycle?

Well he did mention it, but in a distinctly unsatisfactory manner:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.


Thanks for that, my eyes are failing me it seems. Guess I should just go outside and give-up on this.

Sadly, CCP has not learned anything the last few years. They don't seem to grasp that giving customers options is a good thing even when it may bruise a few egos a bit, this is especially troubling when those same customers are demanding choice.

Well damn it then. I'm off to start placing post it notes all around the house.

This is a door, it leads to the kitchen.

This is a door handle, press it to open the door to the kitchen.

This is the kitchen....... etc etc.

Then I'll let you know what my wife and kids think of my idea and just how long it lasts.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Panterata
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2014-05-15 17:11:10 UTC
I'm wondering why there is no option to turn it off??!! You make something which some of the ppl and skilled players don't like. it's normal to have options to turn it off and on.

In this point of view why the hell you made an Audio Enabled select button???? For what? to turn off/on music?! Just remove it
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#576 - 2014-05-15 17:38:50 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Penny Ernaga wrote:

P.S.: quote from CCP Delegate Zero: "...Moreover, we plan to expand and iterate on tooltips going forward." Shocked Holy cow! Is this a seriously meant threat to us players? Or just some black humor? ...Heaven beware Blink


While it may well be that people who call for the firing of others, fling abusive tosh around, or indeed issue various flavours of threat themselves, merit a threat or two in return, this wasn't a threat.

More of a promise.



LOL awesome response.

By refusing to revert these changes and then making a comment like that, you are really alienating the player base. Good job.

With that attitude, you are obviously not going to be leaving CCP for a better job like the other Devs recently. So we are stuck with you and your mates with the same outlook. Awesome future CCP has.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#577 - 2014-05-15 17:44:15 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
we are looking to release the initial set in terms of days. We're certainly not constrained to wait for Kronos.


Days... So Tuesday, 20th of May? Tomorrow would be a "day" and it's Friday and who releases anything on Monday...

Invalid signature format

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#578 - 2014-05-15 17:53:29 UTC
So if an option to turn this off is not in the cards, you need to rollback the entire thing.

Because these are so intrusive, so clunky, and so onmipresent now that it inhibits gameplay in more than a few ways.

And how it got released to TQ I will never know. So please, roll it back, take it back the drawing board. The vast majority of your players do NOT need this kind of heavy handed tooltip stuff, so it needs to be rethought.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Panterata
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2014-05-15 17:58:27 UTC
I have another crappy idea with the tooltips

when you are in space and point some mate on the gate let say with crow. To be more easy for the new players of course and to have moooarrr info just show:

Crow-->Market datails--->skill you need--->ammo you need--->some fitings
--->pilot info--->bio-->link to the kb--->how many time he goes to the WC--->corp--->aliance--->home system--->route the home system--->shorter way to the home system---->how many station have this system...............................

and all this min. in 1000 tooltips!!!
and of course if you have a monitor less then 22 inches you must include the options to scrolling everywhere in space just be "more informed"

Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#580 - 2014-05-15 18:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alternative Splicing
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Following on from that, we are thinking very seriously about how delay timing interacts with the tooltip contents and context. This is a contender for some configuration options. Enough people have asked about an off switch that I think I have to give a straight answer to this: a blanket off switch is not a strong contender as a configuration option.


Okay. Clearly we believe different things when it comes to the word 'iteration'. Somehow, I was under the working impression that part of iteration meant gathering feedback from the people who play the game and using that to make the feature better. Selection bias anyone? You don't seem too open to popular or negative feedback here, yet that is essential to iteration. If iteration just means a slower, inexorable, release of features people do not want or like, then that's really not what was described during the fanfest presentations. So basically, not only can most of that not be taken at face value, neither can your claims be. The biggest problem here is that the vast majority is being ignored. Furthermore, you seem adamant about it, when that is counter-intuitive to a real evolutionary iterative process - out with the bad, in with the good. Where is the iteration we were promised, cause I am having a hard time finding it. Why do you even have a forum for feedback if you don't actually listen to any of it?

I want to log in and use the same UI as I did last week. The fact that I can't is irritating, the fact that you don't seem to want to listen to the vast majority who want the same thing is far worse.