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Wardecs Need Changes

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#61 - 2014-05-15 15:08:30 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, not any corp will force their players to dock up. My alliance won't.

I would hope so, since your alliance KB shows a reasonably active PVP group.

But I see no good reason to fight for players that dislike PVP.

........

I still don't understand why players in NPC corps or one-man corps get to PVE in highsec with crimewatch/CONCORD help, while players that form a corp don't always have that option.


To the first point: Agreed, but docking up is extremely bad advice if you want to play the game AND avoid war. There are plenty of other options available if you want to do both

To the second: NPC corps should not be a safe haven from Wardecs. But I dont know how 1 man corps are?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-05-15 15:14:02 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Not necessarily fight, but adapt. Some people get wardecced, and they don't watchlist the attackers, don't watch local, don't stay aligned, don't scout. They just don't do anything to protect themselves.

The reality is it's VERY hard to lose a ship in a wardec if you absolutely don't want to. Marmites Dec'd us, and since we could never easily guarantee a fight we had a chance of winning, we evaded them. We still spent our time under that wardec undocked, and even flying through hubs and trade routes and killing our own war targets.

Kristall, I get it, you know how to evade combat. Your KB shows that you know how to shoot too. So naturally wardecs are, if anything, fun for you.

But what about people that don't know PVP basics for the simple reason that they don't enjoy it (strangely, I might add, but still...)? I know nothing about mining/reprocessing for example. And very little about PVE. Swarms of red crosses, ugh What?

Say they're really good at PVE instead, run LVL 4s like pros, help out newbros by letting them salvage and loot the missions. They flood the market with cheap SOE ships and their newbro friends flood the market with cheap meta 4 items and rigs (made of salvage). All for the joy of PVPers like us.

Why should these guys, that are reasonably smart, nice and useful members of the EVE community, be encouraged to stay in NPC or one-man corps as the smartest way to continue on doing what they enjoy and do best?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Solecist Project
#63 - 2014-05-15 15:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Kristalll wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
The issue isn't wardecs, but people unwilling to group up and fight.

There is no mechanic that can change this issue and forcing players into
wars they don't want to participate in is nonsense. Thry'll just quit.

What we need is a change of players.
A change in how players learn to play the game.
How they approach it.
How they learn to understand it.

The issue isn't solvable by mechanics,
but by forming the minds of new playera themselves.

Eventually the problem will simply cease to exist
and the carebearing population will turn into an even smaller minority.


The solution is actually fairly simple.............


Not necessarily fight, but adapt. Some people get wardecced, and they don't watchlist the attackers, don't watch local, don't stay aligned, don't scout. They just don't do anything to protect themselves.

The reality is it's VERY hard to lose a ship in a wardec if you absolutely don't want to. Marmites Dec'd us, and since we could never easily guarantee a fight we had a chance of winning, we evaded them. We still spent our time under that wardec undocked, and even flying through hubs and trade routes and killing our own war targets.

Please don't respond to my posts if you can't put deeper thought into the words you are reading.

Hell, your post makes me doubt you know what "reality" actually means,
given how you are able to use it so wrongly.

I feel insulted.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2014-05-15 15:17:14 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

But I see no good reason to fight for players that dislike PVP.

EVE is supposed to be a game that welcomes different playstyles.

I, for one, cannot imagine why anyone would prefer mission running to PVP. I was bored after 2 weeks!

But I don't think that mission runners are inherently bad for the game. If they were, why have PVE content in the first place?

I still don't understand why players in NPC corps or one-man corps get to PVE in highsec with crimewatch/CONCORD help, while players that form a corp don't always have that option.


That's part of the point of the upcoming industry changes. To put assets out in space to defend. To give incentive to people so they have a reason to go out there.

And as for CONCORD, I honestly don't understand it either. I would be much happier with a less binary mechanic, it wouldn't be so immersion breaking.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-05-15 15:20:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
To the first point: Agreed, but docking up is extremely bad advice if you want to play the game AND avoid war. There are plenty of other options available if you want to do both

Yup, agreed, staying docked up is silly. What I'm not sure is a good idea is this: the easiest option for non-combat savvy guys is just to temporarily (or permanently) leave corp. Seems silly to me.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
To the second: NPC corps should not be a safe haven from Wardecs. But I dont know how 1 man corps are?
Never tried it personally, but I understand you can disband and immediately recreate a 1-man corp, invalidating the wardec. James 315 described it in his awesome blog, for example.

If NPC weren't a safe haven, anybody would be deccable, which is an option, sure. Nothing would change for me, for example, I live in lowsec. But what's the point of highsec, then?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#66 - 2014-05-15 15:24:23 UTC
I declared war on the OP for making this thread.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-05-15 15:26:47 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I declared war on the OP for making this thread.

Remember to be careful with your dreads, though. Lol

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#68 - 2014-05-15 15:26:53 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


Lets try it this way, wardecing is like a terrorist attacking america. America can roll in with tanks and fighters and the terrorists (wardecers) will run and hide in there caves. When america gets bored because they can't get any action they leave and return to business as usual. At this point the terrorists crawl back out of their caves and blow up another building and the cycle repeats.

It's not about being defenceless it's about one side having nothing to defend.


No it isnt

Thats ganking you are thinking of


Aren't wardecs used as a way to allow high sec ganking without concord interference. Isn't that the whole issue players have with the current system?

Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved? I would be in favour of some sort of dec dodge penalty if a system like this was added.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-05-15 15:27:54 UTC
Amund Aldent wrote:
Wardecs were created as a means of establishing legal fighting in highsec. Clearly, it was always intended that there be a purpose behind starting a confrontation with someone who is in highsec. Generally, that reason would have some strategic significance behind it, but they can be started for basically any reason. I feel they are being abused by mercs and griefers....




Stopped reading there. Griefing in Eve is really quite rare, and is a violation of the terms of service.

What is extremely common, however, is the abuse of the term to refer to pretty much anyone who does anything that you don't like.

It's essentially a word that losers use to demonize winners, as it sounds like a very powerful, meaningful word that evokes imagery of tweenagers teabagging newbs while yelling racial epithets over comms, but then you go and look at 99.99% of the instances of its application in Eve and all it really means here, most of the time, is, "He used his spacestuff to blow up my spacestuff in a way that was 100% in accordance with the rules of the game and I didn't want him to do that."

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#70 - 2014-05-15 15:34:07 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Yup, agreed, staying docked up is silly. What I'm not sure is a good idea is this: the easiest option for non-combat savvy guys is just to temporarily (or permanently) leave corp. Seems silly to me.


Agreed thats why I dont advise that either

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Never tried it personally, but I understand you can disband and immediately recreate a 1-man corp, invalidating the wardec. James 315 described it in his awesome blog, for example.

If NPC weren't a safe haven, anybody would be deccable, which is an option, sure. Nothing would change for me, for example, I live in lowsec. But what's the point of highsec, then?


Ah I forgot about that, fair enough.

But why are NPC corps allowed to exist in this way? Im not sure I understand the rationale

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#71 - 2014-05-15 15:34:55 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I declared war on the OP for making this thread.

Remember to be careful with your dreads, though. Lol

Don't worry we've apparently got gigantic piles of money and capital alts lying around, if we lose something else we'll just blow up some more of our own carriers.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#72 - 2014-05-15 15:37:40 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:

Aren't wardecs used as a way to allow high sec ganking without concord interference.


Yes. My Alliance currently has this one guy who has wardecced them. He only kills mining barges because he wont undock when they come for him in combat ships, which is fair enough.

But he saids that ganking requires no skill even though he has gone out of his way to lower the amount of skill needed to destroy their mining ships. *shrug* At the end of the day though, they are two different things all the same.

Organic Lager wrote:
Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved?


No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#73 - 2014-05-15 15:39:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Organic Lager wrote:
Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved?


No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable


I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#74 - 2014-05-15 15:43:44 UTC
Amund Aldent wrote:
If you want to grief people, then go grief the miners / industrialists in the newbie areas. There is also the ever present way to flip cans, mobile tractor units, start limited engagements with people and just generally be a **** without having to start 50-100 wars a week that you have almost no intention of fighting unless you happen stance to find the war target in the same system as you.
First of all, intentionally griefing newbies in the starter systems is a bannable offense, not to mention how sad and pathetic it is to do..

As for your OP.. Welcome to EVE!
As you might have discovered by now, EVE isn't your regular theme park MMO with "safe zones", it's a cold, harsh, and cruel universe. If you don't like it then you have two options really, HTFU or GTFO.

War decs are fine as is, apart from the fact that the victim corp can freely jump ship to avoid the war. And also, stop sounding like such a whining victim here. There's nothing stopping you from putting up a fight, and usually, apart from the more seasoned content creators, once you engage, and make THEM sit in station they usually give up since they are bad.
So stop calling people "griefers" since there's no griefing going on. It's all fun and allowed within the sandbox. See a war dec as a chance to filter out all the bottom feeders from your corp, and a chance to bond and get experience with your true corp mates.

This signature intentionally left blank
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-05-15 15:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Organic Lager wrote:
Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved?


No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable


I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting.



I can. It's easy. It's not like they're going to be the ones doing any structure-pew, so it doesn't matter to them, and the general welfare of the game isn't really a concern for them, either - only their personal experience.

So the question for them, really, is, "What sort of stupid, arbitrary rule could we inflict on other people to improve my own quality of life by deterring them from interacting with me?"

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#76 - 2014-05-15 15:50:28 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting.



I can. It's easy. It's not like they're going to be the ones doing any structure-pew, so it doesn't matter to them, and the general welfare of the game isn't really a concern for them, either - only their personal experience.

So the question for them, really, is, "What sort of stupid, arbitrary rule could we inflict on other people to improve my own quality of life by deterring them from interacting with me?"


Sorry, which "them" are you talking about?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#77 - 2014-05-15 15:54:04 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sorry, which "them" are you talking about?

I'm assuming the "them" is the heaving throng of carebears that want declaring wars to be more mechanically difficult or expensive so that they don't have to deal with being at war. The people who want the game to inherently protect them from interacting with other players.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-05-15 15:56:31 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Yup, agreed, staying docked up is silly. What I'm not sure is a good idea is this: the easiest option for non-combat savvy guys is just to temporarily (or permanently) leave corp. Seems silly to me.


Agreed thats why I dont advise that either

If it's a new player corp, sure, get out and fight. Have fun. Learn to scout, dscan, instadock/undock, whatever. Learn to lose your ship without crying and to get your pod out (even if it's empty).

But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you. War Decs are just a PITA if you have 'more important' stuff to do.

For example, I hear people with active wardecs aren't allowed in the main incursion fleets. For obvious, if somewhat cowardly, reasons.

I would temporarily give CONCORD a vaction from incursion systems even in highsec, but that's just me.

The reality is, experienced players that want hassle-free PVE simply don't join corps. Not a solid mechanic, imo.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#79 - 2014-05-15 15:58:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Organic Lager wrote:
Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved?


No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable


I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting.


Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other. If the decers have to defend something it means they may actually have to fight in a war.

But that isn't your goal now is it? You just want a free way to lock mining barges and freighters so you can feel like a bad ass "pvper".
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-05-15 15:58:04 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sorry, which "them" are you talking about?

I'm assuming the "them" is the heaving throng of carebears that want declaring wars to be more mechanically difficult or expensive so that they don't have to deal with being at war. The people who want the game to inherently protect them from interacting with other players.


^That's the them.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/