Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I've read every post, did you read my proposed change? It does not contradict your points.

Yeah, I did. It would certainly fix the issue with hitting caps, but it doesn't really make these changes any better since without the changes, that issue would never exist in the first place. My post was to point out that these changes certainly aren't making the Phoenix significantly worse at hitting subcapitals than it used to be, which is why I only quoted that one sentence in your post.

But anyway, I doubt that their actual intentions are to nerf the blap Phoenix too significantly. From the way these changes to application interact with hitting subcaps I can only imagine they didn't really think them all the way through. A much better change to application would've been for instance to increase explosion velocity by 20% and leave explosion radius alone -- the net buff would've remained roughly the same, we could've avoided having to increase the signature radius of POSes, dreads and hopefully also carriers, and the effects on subcap application would've been essentially the same.

I hereby propose the 20% Buffed Explosion Velocity But Otherwise Vanilla -torpedo change. Its base stats would be 2000m Explosion Radius and 24m/s Explosion Velocity (and of course the buffs to travel speed, which don't affect application). With all 5, its stats would become 1500m Explosion Radius and 36m/s Explosion Velocity. Its application would be almost completely identical (we're talking about a 2.8% difference in favour of my suggestion, they would be identical for moving targets if the explosion velocity was 23⅓m/s but I'm not sure how the system likes fractionals).

For instance, on an Abaddon with a signature of 470m and top speed of 111m/s:

FOZZIE TORP (2250 Explosion Radius, 52.5 Explosion Velocity):
Damage multiplier: 0.0987987988
Stationary damage: 0.2088888889
Moving damage: 0.0987987988
Minimum tanking speed 10.96666667

BEVBOV (1500 Explosion Radius, 36 Explosion Velocity):
Damage multiplier: 0.1016216216
Stationary damage: 0.3133333333
Moving damage: 0.1016216216
Minimum tanking speed 11.28

Or the webbed and painted and linked Proteus I already used in another example, signature 598m and top speed of 53m/s:

FOZZIE TORP:
Damage multiplier: 0.2632704403
Stationary damage: 0.2657777778
Moving damage: 0.2632704403
Minimum tanking speed 13.95333333

BEVBOV:
Damage multiplier: 0.2707924528
Stationary damage: 0.3986666667
Moving damage: 0.2707924528
Minimum tanking speed 14.352

Or, say, a linked untriaged Archon moving at its top speed (essentially a slowcat I guess), with a signature of 1956m and a top speed of 88m/s:

FOZZIE TORP:
Damage multiplier: 0.5186363636
Stationary damage: 0.8693333333
Moving damage: 0.5186363636
Minimum tanking speed 45.64

BEVBOV:
Damage multiplier: 0.5334545455
Stationary damage: 1.304
Moving damage: 0.5334545455
Minimum tanking speed 46.944

As you can see, my BEVBOV suggestion is almost identical as far as application on moving targets is concerned, but doesn't suffer from the completely ridicilous issue of being unable to apply to stationary Archons etc.

EDIT: Revised my suggestion, making it closer to Fozzie's original draft.

Now just as you say that, we go back to the original point that you have been ignoring from the start which is why people are mad..
The devs DON'T listen.

Fixing a ship by changing 4 hulls and a structure... CCP 2014.

Hey, I revised the idea I posted a few messages up a little. It's now less than 3% off of Fozzie's original draft in the opening post as far as application on moving targets is concerned, and getting it to a 100% match would simply be a matter of lowering the explosion velocity by 0.66666...m/s and make it a fractional.

This suggestion has the exact same application on anything that's moving, but isn't gimped against stationary targets unlike the original suggestion. It doesn't suffer from any of that "not being able to hit triaged carriers for full damage" nonsense, and if it was used we could avoid increasing the sig of carriers, dreads and POS modules while the Phoenix's application on subcaps would remain essentially unchanged.

Pls respond Fozziem8

I have a suspicion this change is merely a stopgap until the full capital rebalance coming in a later expansion. The mere fact we got a phoenix improvement in kronos shows ccp is aware how broken the ship is. Continue pointing out the problems and be patient

If it's a stopgap they shouldn't be changing all POS towers and the entire Dreadnought class to go with it. It's reckless design and they need to go back to the drawing board.

Once it gets guns though, it will be just like the Naga in that any proposal to change it to missiles will be met with flames.

I think it would be easier to fix missile code than to try and switch/balance a hybrid Phoenix. Besides, we really do need missile code to be fixed, and even updated.

The exact same application the current Tranquility Phoenix would have. For this example, let's assume a Raven being painted by a Hyena (1x paint) and webbed by a Vindicator (1x 90% web), top speed: 14m/s, signature radius: 1085m.

Current Phoenix (1500 Explosion Radius, 30 Explosion Velocity):
Damage multiplier: 0.7233333333
Stationary damage: 0.7233333333
Moving damage: 1.55
Minimum tanking speed 21.7

My suggestion: (1500 Explosion Radius, 36 Explosion Velocity):
Damage multiplier: 0.7233333333
Stationary damage: 0.7233333333
Moving damage: 1.86
Minimum tanking speed 26.04

For comparison's sake, here's Fozzie's draft from the OP:
Damage multiplier: 0.4822222222
Stationary damage: 0.4822222222
Moving damage: 1.808333333
Minimum tanking speed 25.31666667
(As you can see it applies significantly worse, which is because the raven is essentially stationary as far as the formula is concerned, and that particular missile has, when compared to the old missile, trouble hitting stationary targets.)

I don't think this is really an issue, as gun dreads wouldn't have any issues hitting that target either. A Naglfar with no tracking computers, tracking enhancers or tracking rigs would apply almost full damage at 20km and upwards, as would a Moros. The Phoenix, even after these changes, thus applies comparably worse to this target. Here are the DPS graphs from EFT, although the Phoenix used here has the old torpedo stats (which have the same application as my suggestion). Even with the ROF bonus, the Phoenix will do far less damage to this target than gun dreads, although admittedly its alpha will be a little better (in the ballpark of 50-60k compared to the 35-45k of the gun dreads, assuming no modules fitted).

Keep in mind the Phoenix is losing the hull damage bonus and having that damage transferred into RoF, which means that it'll do a little less (25% less) alpha.

Well, this is true to an extent. A Moros with 3x Tracking Computers with Tracking Speed Scripts would easily apply all of its DPS to that target at ranges above 10-15km. A Phoenix would require 2x Rigors to apply all of its damage here. However, I think using rigs for application instead of mid/lowslots is a nice niche for the Phoenix.