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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#361 - 2014-05-14 14:11:38 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero

Is that picture from the internal design work? Big smile Good to hear much needed changes are incoming, I still think you should have used the test server to avoid much of the drama.


I hope that the mass of constructive feedback you mention refers to providing the option to turn this sh!t off and not some other half-baked idea that you are more than likely going to come up with.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#362 - 2014-05-14 14:12:43 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
all the constructive feedback


Masterpiece.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#363 - 2014-05-14 14:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Max Morton wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to address some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero





Don't understand why this feature was brought right onto the main sever without any feedback on the test sever first surely that's what its there for????



You misunderstand the purpose of the test server.

For a number of years now, CCP have provided a test server to give the impression that they care what the player base say. Actually they frequently bring in a complete bag of crap, make a couple of minor changes to make them look good, then bring it in anyway regardless of what anyone says.


Add to that, the fact that these CCP Devs clearly have not played the game in any meaningful way (flying around in a shuttle looking at the pretty stars doesn’t count) gives no one any confidence that things will get any better.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#364 - 2014-05-14 14:22:05 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Max Morton wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to address some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero





Don't understand why this feature was brought right onto the main sever without any feedback on the test sever first surely that's what its there for????



You misunderstand the purpose of the test server.

For a number of years now, CCP have provided a test server to give the impression that they care what the player base say. Actually they frequently bring in a complete bag of crap, make a couple of minor changes to make them look good, then bring it in anyway regardless of what anyone says.




These guys actually forgot to test this out, they actually forgot they even had a test server to test this mess on! im currently about to attempt a 99 yard kick puppy field goal cause these darn tooltip block signs remind me of the freaking airport.. and I hate airports!!!
Sarka Bathory
Perkone
Caldari State
#365 - 2014-05-14 14:32:13 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to address some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero



I very, very much hope following "all the constructive feedback" does not mean that you ignore the comments you don`t like. Which are, in a nutshell: those tooltips are bad and need to be removed, urgently.
It is very constructive that people - customers! - tell CCP that they don`t like it. Think of the many more who just will quit, without giving any feedback. In that sense, ALL feedback you get here is constructive feedback.

So, very constructively, please, please:
A: Undo the patch, or B: put an On/Off switch to it

Constructively Yours,
Sarka
Alec16
Never Not AFK
#366 - 2014-05-14 14:36:14 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to address some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero


I think the feedback would have been much more constructive if this was deployed to the test server first. A place where people go to test things and give you feedback. If you deploy something as unpolished as this straight to tranquility you should have expected screaming and whining.
Lisa Gentilette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2014-05-14 14:36:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lisa Gentilette
Milla Goodpussy wrote:


These guys actually forgot to test this out, they actually forgot they even had a test server to test this mess on! im currently about to attempt a 99 yard kick puppy field goal cause these darn tooltip block signs remind me of the freaking airport.. and I hate airports!!!


No, big misconception it was on the test server.
It also was only available to only half of the people on the test server and if you may not know this, the test server is anything but crowded, so very few people got to see this and where able to comment on this.

Worse thing is that had we the player base known, by releasing the dev blog for this before they put this on TQ, there might have been more people who could have turn the tide.
Then again the unified inventory went on TQ despite many, many complaints from players who tested it and was in its first iterations ehh, 'not good'.


Edit link to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=340666&find=unread
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#368 - 2014-05-14 14:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
Max Morton wrote:
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to address some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero





Don't understand why this feature was brought right onto the main sever without any feedback on the test sever first surely that's what its there for????



You misunderstand the purpose of the test server.

For a number of years now, CCP have provided a test server to give the impression that they care what the player base say. Actually they frequently bring in a complete bag of crap, make a couple of minor changes to make them look good, then bring it in anyway regardless of what anyone says.




These guys actually forgot to test this out, they actually forgot they even had a test server to test this mess on! im currently about to attempt a 99 yard kick puppy field goal cause these darn tooltip block signs remind me of the freaking airport.. and I hate airports!!!



Yeah, forgetting to make it available for half the accounts didn’t help, but it doesn’t matter as they would not have listened anyway.

CCP are more focussed on bringing in the crap first (to get brownie points from their boss for new stuff), then providing iterations to make it slightly less crappy which drags the process out for a few months before being almost half-decent.

A sensible (non-CCP) approach would be to use the test server for its real purpose, but they stopped doing that before Incarna, at which point I gave up giving test server feedback as it was a complete waste of time.
Traein Andedare
Doomheim
#369 - 2014-05-14 14:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Traein Andedare
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
We've been following all the constructive feedback on this thread, and in other places, closely and will be making some adjustments to address some of the issues that have been exposed since release.

We're intending to release a small update very soon to address the most pressing matters.

Cheers,
Delegate Zero


You forgot the part about the on/most-likely-off switch

Could you elaborate more please? Because these tooltips are bad, very bad. Highly invasive and plain not needed
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#370 - 2014-05-14 14:39:35 UTC
handbanana wrote:
Could we get an official non-vague answer please if this latest "improvement" is going to be optional or not?

CCP my account runs out in a little over a week. I know I am only one banana, but just letting you know there is no way I am going to keep paying you if I can't turn this off. Moreover, if you don't start testing your stuff better, I thnk you are going to lose all your bananas.

they'll do like they did for the jump animation:

1- release crap
2- post in feedback thread they heard the player, and that the'll iterate while everyone just want an on/off switch
3- will forget about it and let the thread for 2 weeks, then close it
4- new thread will start in GD (or continue), up to 100+ pages, with no answer from dev

a year later, nothing will have changed...

check this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243438
Noel Wolfisheim
Project Blackwolf
#371 - 2014-05-14 14:42:14 UTC
I enjoy the tooltips as they add an extra detail that felt missing to the game. However, as some other people have brought up in this thread there's also the need to allow players some options regarding the tooltips, on the top of my head there's an aesthetic change; the tooltips should share the same custom color as the UI, either as an option or automatically, I feel it's a small detail that is needed to make the tooltips more polished.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#372 - 2014-05-14 14:42:35 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
handbanana wrote:
Could we get an official non-vague answer please if this latest "improvement" is going to be optional or not?

CCP my account runs out in a little over a week. I know I am only one banana, but just letting you know there is no way I am going to keep paying you if I can't turn this off. Moreover, if you don't start testing your stuff better, I thnk you are going to lose all your bananas.

they'll do like they did for the jump animation:

1- release crap
2- post in feedback thread they heard the player, and that the'll iterate while everyone just want an on/off switch
3- will forget about it and let the thread for 2 weeks, then close it
4- new thread will start in GD (or continue), up to 100+ pages, with no answer from dev

a year later, nothing will have changed...

check this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243438


the CCP philosophy perfectly described
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#373 - 2014-05-14 14:44:38 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
all the constructive feedback


Oh, snap!

Is that constructive enough for you?

Invalid signature format
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#374 - 2014-05-14 14:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: AFK Hauler
Suggestions:

The predictive mouse menu should get some extra time to account for coffee hands. Many times in the star map menu I look for station services in a system and have a hard time keeping the sub menus active long enough to move my mouse to them. My coffee hands cause slight deviation from the mouse path and I lose the sub menu.

Break the menus out into separate, active entities. They should look and feel similar to a tool tip with the triangular arrow pointing back to the parent menu. The parent menu at that point can become deactivated or removed. In that instance, a right-hand popup can become active if the spacing allows without interfering with the parent menu. The top choice on any sub menu should be the parent menu reactivation.

Please change the cornered square looking UI/tool tips into something softer and easier to look at. This game is 11 years old and it still has the same harsh feel in the UI that gives the “spreadsheets in space” look. It’s time to update the interface and information delivery look. You have done a great job rounding most of the interface/space interactions, but the core UI is still hard, and outdated. This applies to the new tool tips and their associated popups too.

I know that it is possible to change the way brackets appear in space, but it should not take a 3rd party tool to customize, nor should the UI brackets be account wide. Please make bracket settings per character and not the account. Adding in popular bracket configurations (colors too) for new players to experience would be helpful. Give some selection options and tools to make it customize easier. Colors and information associated to colors help process information quicker. Monotone or single colors to different information causes fatigue to new players not accustomed to processing information on a mass scale quickly. Shapes and colors help with processing information. Icons are a good point, they help in quickly identify the type of associated information. Tool tips should work similar to information processing. Unify color schemes to information types would help to identify what we are asking or needing to know quickly.

Damage applied and received needs some love – big time. The current scrolling menu with damage and damage type needs to be relegated to a combat menu in a chat window with full details on the combat action. The action happening at that moment should be easy to follow with damage scrolling at or near the targeted interaction similar to a tool tip on the targeted item. If I have 10 ships firing at me, then have one battle damage scroll listing all the damage received as I receive it in a separate tool tip. However, if only one of the 10 are shooting, then have the damage scroll point to that ship on a popup tool tip doing the damage with the red glow. Any damage I do to that ship should have a damage done scroll that is attached to that ship in space. If the ship is off screen, then the scrolling tool tip should become fixed in a location that is customizable (similar to the way it is now, but a lot less information, which is in the chat window). Other games do this well and EVE should be no exception.

Not really NPE or popup tool tip related, but it would be cool: Add bookmarks to the scanning window as a 4th tab. Give the same information/look as the overview so that we can use them more like the overview without cluttering the menu. Make them something we can right-click to act upon in fleets, or share if we are fleet commander with permissions to wing/squad commanders. Limit the bookmarks to current system to prevent TMI. Just hoping that your team is in a place to make some useful interaction changes for all players, not just new ones.


Forgot to add: Make all of it turn off if we don't want to look at the tool tips, and customize the level of tool tip response.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#375 - 2014-05-14 14:48:58 UTC
While I agree that some of the functionality regarding tooltips requires a bit more of ironing to straighten out, I must say that I really like the tooltips in EVE and as a general concept for improving UX.

There are so much applications, including games, out there that try to "simplify" the UI with abstract looking icons unique to that application only with no way of user knowing what the hell will happen if they click the icon until the icon is actually clicked.

I even remember the time when I started playing EVE more than 7 years ago that it took me a full month to get my head around where is what in EVE interface and which icon represents a specific functionality. I have also explained to many newbies in numerous occasions how to get to some option and what to click. The path (depth of it) and placement of the options is mostly good and I usually don't have trouble explaining that. But the "can you see that three horizontal bars thingie in the top left corner of the window... - No, what "thingie?"" was always the problem.

Overall, I really like the new tooltips, but they will have to see some more love until they function perfectly. It's a great addition to the UX and I really hope that iteration on it will not be placed at the end of the development backlog.Smile
Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#376 - 2014-05-14 14:49:39 UTC
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
handbanana wrote:
Could we get an official non-vague answer please if this latest "improvement" is going to be optional or not?

CCP my account runs out in a little over a week. I know I am only one banana, but just letting you know there is no way I am going to keep paying you if I can't turn this off. Moreover, if you don't start testing your stuff better, I thnk you are going to lose all your bananas.

they'll do like they did for the jump animation:

1- release crap
2- post in feedback thread they heard the player, and that the'll iterate while everyone just want an on/off switch
3- will forget about it and let the thread for 2 weeks, then close it
4- new thread will start in GD (or continue), up to 100+ pages, with no answer from dev

a year later, nothing will have changed...

check this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243438


I don't know about you, but it makes me feel like I'm being trolled by the company I give money to. Maybe it'll be time to change one of those two things soon. I know which one I can change.

Ugh

They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake.

**This IS my main so STFU.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#377 - 2014-05-14 14:53:47 UTC
Yall are the biggest babies

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2014-05-14 14:55:54 UTC
Belt Scout wrote:
Eurynome Mangeiri wrote:
handbanana wrote:
Could we get an official non-vague answer please if this latest "improvement" is going to be optional or not?

CCP my account runs out in a little over a week. I know I am only one banana, but just letting you know there is no way I am going to keep paying you if I can't turn this off. Moreover, if you don't start testing your stuff better, I thnk you are going to lose all your bananas.

they'll do like they did for the jump animation:

1- release crap
2- post in feedback thread they heard the player, and that the'll iterate while everyone just want an on/off switch
3- will forget about it and let the thread for 2 weeks, then close it
4- new thread will start in GD (or continue), up to 100+ pages, with no answer from dev

a year later, nothing will have changed...

check this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243438


I don't know about you, but it makes me feel like I'm being trolled by the company I give money to. Maybe it'll be time to change one of those two things soon. I know which one I can change.

Ugh

tbh since odyssey i didn't renewed 3 of my 4 acounts, two cancelled because of the crap they brought to replace exploration, the 3rd because of the jump animation.
my main account as came up to the end of it's sub and is now burning my remaining PLEX.

i gave myself 1 year to see if CCP would change their behaviour, they did not.... so no more money from me
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#379 - 2014-05-14 15:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MuraSaki Siki
one tooltip concern during hacking

Loot can spew
before : when mouse hang over the icon, it immediate shows up the name, so we can browse through all the cans very quickly
now : there's a little time delay between hanging over and tooltip popout.

although the delay is very short, but it does consume time (especially there's limited time to pickup loot cans before vanishing)

would it be able to adjust delay in setting menu?



p.s. this situation also apply to the situation
when you have to find something within numerous objects in space which doesn't show up in overview
(by personal overview setting, or intentional cannot be added in overview like loot can)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#380 - 2014-05-14 15:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
So let's see… so far, the positives I've seen are:

• Delay from mouseOut events to keep menus active while I select a submenu.

Negatives are:

• Tool tips being annoyingly slow to appear.
• Tool tips being annoyingly slow to disappear (this one is hard to fix without affecting the positive part).
• Tool tips being annoyingly slowing down precise and fast work because of the above.
• Tool tips being annoyingly large and covering up important information.
• Tool tips being annoyingly common — they are less “tool tips” and more “anything on the screen”-tips, including things that need no tips at all.
• Tool tips being annoyingly redundant — they often list the exact thing that's already showing, only with more screen-obscuring fluff around it.
• Tool tips being annoyingly incorrectly clustered and…
• Tool tips being annoyingly non-specific — things that should trigger tips don't; things that should not appear in the tip do; and there is often no way of telling what the tool tip is for (see the much posted video).
• Tool tips being annoyingly inconsistent (and incorrectly applied) throughout different parts of the UI (see the star system map example posted earlier).
• Tool tips being annoyingly unspecific as to anyone's actual needs and workflows.
• Tool tips being annoyingly confused with tutorial tips (blatantly stolen from AFK Hauler below) — just because a player needs to learn about an element doesn't mean it needs a tool tip. It just means the tutorial needs to teach it at some point.
• Tool tips being… well annoying.


In short(?), if something has no valuable information tied to it — it should have no tool tip because there is nothing to inform the player about. This includes almost every bracket in space. Module and player tool tips have some value, almost nothing else does. Simple UI elements are likewise completely devoid of information and often have a descriptor right next to it — they have absolutely no need for any tips. Things that are simply meant to be selected (again, brackets in space come to mind) already have an information source: the “select item” menu, and by clogging them and the screen up with tool tips, you are inhibiting their only reason for existing — i.e. to be selected. That is bad design.

It's neat that you have this new tool. The problem is that, as in the hammer analogy, you're now assuming that everything is a nail. What you need to do is remove it from everything, then go back and go through every last element on screen and think — very carefully — if it has any need for a tool tip. You will find that most things don't.

…oh, and then you need to add in settings to let players disagree with you because our use cases will never be same as yours (or even as our own).