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Gevlon=Carebear Extraordinaire?

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#21 - 2014-05-14 07:28:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
depends if you value your time or not. generally skipping over gevlon's blog articles means that your time can be used for more of your own ship toasting.


FTFY

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-05-14 07:32:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
I've never seen having bias as a good thing.


depends if you value your time or not. generally skipping over gevlon's blog articles means that your time can be used more productively.

We're on a productivity-killer forum which is made for a productivity-killer game which kills even more productivity by making us learn things that have no importance or bearing in the real world.

You and I are both just wasting away, and probably in denial of it.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#23 - 2014-05-14 07:32:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Let me guess: since it's a Gevlon post, he's slowly and painfully worked out something that was blindingly obvious to everyone else, and then drawn some batshit insane conclusion from it.


As opposed to 14 people who are well aware of those blindingly obvious issues and spent whole year working on making cooperative PVE ideas happen?

I know, sounding board makes sound only when something hits it...

Invalid signature format
Myxx
The Scope
#24 - 2014-05-14 07:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
As much as I dislike him... he isn't entirely wrong to a point. Of course, he goes overboard as per usual... but his insight into the reasons people quit isn't actually wrong. I think some of what he extrapolates from it, and his perceived solutions... are misguided at best.

Quote:


What does WoW have and EVE doesn't? Low and mid-level cooperative play! If you go to a WoW server, you see every single player in a guild. There is no such WoW player as "don't trade very much... they don't engage in a diverse range of activities" except for roleplaying hermits. Why? Because WoW rewards grouping on every level to do PvE, while EVE punishes it. If two newbies in WoW group up to level, the wolves killed by their teammate counts to them too. So the "kill 10 wolves" quest turns into a "kill 5 wolves each" quest. In EVE if you group up with someone, he will steal from you and try to trick you into limited engagement and even if you found a honest fellow newbie, you will advance slower in group. If you join a guild in WoW, you get passive bonuses. If you join a corp in EVE, you get wardecced and awoxed. I play the game for more than two years, participate in the community, "got a name", took part in the greatest battle, creating my unique content and my main is still in the starter NPC corp because I saw no reason to do differently. Hell, I couldn't lure my girlfriend to EVE simply because we couldn't play together as she instantly recognized that she is just holding me back and she hated that.

There is no such thing as solo MMO player. That 40% don't prefer playing solo. They are forced to, because outside of PvP and high-end PvE (incursions, WH capital escalations), the game punishes grouping. What could be added to help them? At first, stop punishing grouping. Awoxing must go away, along with wardeccing highsec corps that have no structures. Don't give me the "EVE must be risky" crap! One can be completely safe from wars and awoxes in the NPC corp or 1-man corp. Why should the game punish having a tag while playing the same way. Of course a corp that owns POS or POCO must be wardecable, but a few guys chatting while missioning shouldn't or they will mission without chatting until getting bored and quiting.


Distrust, awoxing, and general harassment by one group against another isn't particularly going to encourage anyone to stay. Yeah, its part of what makes EVE what it is... but its its own worst enemy, too. Could there be a solution? I don't know. That isn't an easy answer.

EVE isn't nice to new players, hell it isn't nice to old players either. The first part is a problem and it shouldn't be ignored.
Dave stark
#25 - 2014-05-14 07:35:32 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
depends if you value your time or not. generally skipping over gevlon's blog articles means that your time can be used for more of your own ship toasting.


FTFY

hey, i love toasting ships. best part of the day.
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#26 - 2014-05-14 07:36:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


split rewards are totally the issue.
sure a 50/50 split is fine; if you're completing missions twice as fast. however, you won't be.
rats might die twice as fast, but you don't slowboat between gates twice as fast, earning standings to run the next level of missions is halved etc.

the split either needs to gtfo, or be turned in to some kind of negative exponential formula.

at least mining has the good grace to benefit from more players, each subsequent member of the fleet increases the average isk/hour of the fleet due the orca/haulers contributing 0 isk/hour directly. missions have no saving grace like that, you just get a flat 1/x payout but you're not going x times faster.


Oh, I know.

Bout the only thing running missions with another person is good for is standings raise, and even then, it slows the process with fleet warps, coordination, etc.

You won't hear any arguing from me, Dave, lol.





Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.
Dave stark
#27 - 2014-05-14 07:38:49 UTC
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:
Bout the only thing running missions with another person is good for is standings raise

guilty, when i do missions it's literally just to grind standings for my alt that never undocks.
Dex Lysia
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-05-14 08:01:59 UTC
I'm Dex Lysia, and I'm a carebear. No need to read any further if that offends you.

There are many ways to slice the difference between "the real Eve players" and "the carebears who should go back to WoW", Gevlon's latest definition being one of the best IMO.

The message I take from his post is that CCP should give the 40% the mechanics they need to enable social interaction, rather than trying to force them change their personal nature to match that of the 10%. I'm pretty sure this would also help to retain some of the 50% who came looking for cooperative MMO play.

Would it really destroy the whole fabric of Eve if you couldn't wardec tiny, unwilling corps that had no structures? As he says, those people just end up safe in NPC corps anyway.

Would it really destroy the whole fabric of Eve if CONCORD punished non-consensual shooting between corp members? Bad men could still gank anyone they wanted in highsec.

Accepting "WoW players" doesn't reduce the NUMBER of people who like gudfites, it just reduces the PROPORTION of them. In the meantime, CCP makes more money and we all get more devs and a better game.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-14 08:27:32 UTC
Dex Lysia wrote:

Accepting "WoW players" doesn't reduce the NUMBER of people who like gudfites, it just reduces the PROPORTION of them. In the meantime, CCP makes more money and we all get more devs and a better game.

And these proportions is what determines futher direction of development.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2014-05-14 08:28:50 UTC
Dex Lysia wrote:
Would it really destroy the whole fabric of Eve if CONCORD punished non-consensual shooting between corp members? Bad men could still gank anyone they wanted in highsec.


Yes

Purely from a game mechanics point of view (with the mechanics as they stand and the practical limitations they impose) it breaks several things including alliance / corp PvP tournaments (several corps / alliances have specific awox events).

It would break the way that RvB operates on a day to day basis (blues often loan pilots to red and visa versa)

It breaks PvP training within corps etc. (other than on a one to one basis because - fsck duel invitations to more than one or two people its a pain in the chuff)


EvE players are some of the most devious, cunning and conniving people on gods green earth and there is no way to implement a system where you flag yourself as 'i'm happy to PvP' or 'not up for PvP' that could not be relentlessly manipulated by EvE players.

tldr; working as intended at the moment.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-05-14 08:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Khador Vess wrote:

EvE players are some of the most devious, cunning and conniving people on gods green earth and there is no way to implement a system where you flag yourself as 'i'm happy to PvP' or 'not up for PvP' that could not be relentlessly manipulated by EvE players.

He still has one good point. Withing a corp it SHOULD be set by flag. By doing so you could tournament and train when you wish so, and be protected from awoxers in higsecs by switching it off while missioning.

And you still can be a devious EVE player by persuading your corpmate to switch it off to "test one hilarious thing I've read about on internets"

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2014-05-14 08:37:56 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:

EvE players are some of the most devious, cunning and conniving people on gods green earth and there is no way to implement a system where you flag yourself as 'i'm happy to PvP' or 'not up for PvP' that could not be relentlessly manipulated by EvE players.

He still has one good point. Withing a corp it SHOULD be set by flag. By doing so you could tournament and train when you wish so, and be protected from awoxers in higsecs by switching it off while missioning.

And you still can be a devious EVE player by persuading your corpmate to switch it off to "test one hilarious thing I've read about on internets"


It is set by a flag... the flag is the undock button.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#33 - 2014-05-14 08:38:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Let me guess: since it's a Gevlon post, he's slowly and painfully worked out something that was blindingly obvious to everyone else, and then drawn some batshit insane conclusion from it.


yes, but he accidentally stumbled upon a good point about the fact that eve's pve generally discourages player interaction co-operation (as does most pve in eve but yeah)


Well some of us have been banging that drum since about 2007, but gg GG for "discovering" that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#34 - 2014-05-14 08:38:38 UTC
Dex Lysia wrote:
Would it really destroy the whole fabric of Eve if you couldn't wardec tiny, unwilling corps that had no structures? As he says, those people just end up safe in NPC corps anyway.


If you don't see anything wrong with 1 man corp with 0 taxes and war dec immunity I don't think we play same game.

Invalid signature format
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#35 - 2014-05-14 08:39:12 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Let me guess: since it's a Gevlon post, he's slowly and painfully worked out something that was blindingly obvious to everyone else, and then drawn some batshit insane conclusion from it.


As opposed to 14 people who are well aware of those blindingly obvious issues and spent whole year working on making cooperative PVE ideas happen?

I know, sounding board makes sound only when something hits it...


Priorities, mate, priorities.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-05-14 08:43:30 UTC
Khador Vess wrote:

It is set by a flag... the flag is the undock button.

You still haven't got a reasonable explanation why a corp member should be granted unconditional right to shoot his corpmate, while being denied of such right with regard to any other player of highsec (except fo outlaws, war targets etc), have you?

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2014-05-14 08:46:19 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:

It is set by a flag... the flag is the undock button.

You still haven't got a reasonable explanation why a corp member should be granted unconditional right to shoot his corpmate, while being denied of such right with regard to any other player of highsec (except fo outlaws, war targets etc), have you?



Without this Player corps become effectively low tax NPC Corps. If you want concord protection, stay in an NPC corp.

Choose to join a player corp and accept the consequences of your decision. Choose to stay in an NPC corp and be snuggly warm and 'safe' but pay for the privilege.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#38 - 2014-05-14 08:46:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Priorities, mate, priorities.


Oh ok, I didn't realize incentives for cooperative gameplay is not that high on to-do list as for example bungee jumping structure.

Invalid signature format
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-05-14 08:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Khador Vess wrote:

Without this Player corps become effectively low tax NPC Corps. If you want concord protection, stay in an NPC corp.
Choose to join a player corp and accept the consequences of your decision. Choose to stay in an NPC corp and be snuggly warm and 'safe' but pay for the privilege.

Thats basically the reason why everyone carebear in highsecs just creates a corp for himself and get both simultaneusly. You can create a chat channel to be in touch with your friends, you know. And beside corp chat channel, which other profits one can gain from joining a corp of high sec mission runners? Rethorical question, isn't it? But he also aquiries a possibility to be awoxed and much higher probability of wardec coming his way. Do you think this is a healty state of community (just leaveing aside predictable 'grr.. carebears' rant)?

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Dave stark
#40 - 2014-05-14 08:59:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Let me guess: since it's a Gevlon post, he's slowly and painfully worked out something that was blindingly obvious to everyone else, and then drawn some batshit insane conclusion from it.


yes, but he accidentally stumbled upon a good point about the fact that eve's pve generally discourages player interaction co-operation (as does most pve in eve but yeah)


Well some of us have been banging that drum since about 2007, but gg GG for "discovering" that.


I think i've been moaning about it since i started, then i gave up because **** it... it's also kind of nice to have the option not to have to interact with people and still get tip top rewards