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But is it cap stable???
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-05-12 21:09:17 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
IIshira wrote:
my point was by reducing their already poor DPS to become cap stable they're making things worse. Maybe they could've been putting out 400 DPS even with poor skills but with all the cap mods now they're putting out 250. Of course some of this can be mitigated with a bling fit but that opens another can of worms.

II'm not saying go for the uber fits with 1 min of cap but if you're getting 5 min of cap with max burst tank it's plenty

Well, yesno. This 5-minute-cap rule of thumb holds only if you are able to get the situation under control within that time. I haven't figured exact numbers but with a pinch of tactical asspull I'd reckon that it translates to be able to clear whole room under 10 minutes. So if any given dude even with optimal fit struggles to clear the room in 20 minutes or more then let's face it, he needs to be stable for time being.

Exactly this. Lower DPS translates to running tank longer. what this means is that is a well skilled pilot ever has issues with a 5 min tank, a lesser skilled player would have their tank fail before getting things under control. And that's before factoring in the fact that their tank may be less efficient meaning they could still be tanking even less in that 5 minutes.
BigWolfUK
Sons-of-Liberty
#42 - 2014-05-13 12:07:18 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
IIshira wrote:
my point was by reducing their already poor DPS to become cap stable they're making things worse. Maybe they could've been putting out 400 DPS even with poor skills but with all the cap mods now they're putting out 250. Of course some of this can be mitigated with a bling fit but that opens another can of worms.

II'm not saying go for the uber fits with 1 min of cap but if you're getting 5 min of cap with max burst tank it's plenty

Well, yesno. This 5-minute-cap rule of thumb holds only if you are able to get the situation under control within that time. I haven't figured exact numbers but with a pinch of tactical asspull I'd reckon that it translates to be able to clear whole room under 10 minutes. So if any given dude even with optimal fit struggles to clear the room in 20 minutes or more then let's face it, he needs to be stable for time being.

Exactly this. Lower DPS translates to running tank longer. what this means is that is a well skilled pilot ever has issues with a 5 min tank, a lesser skilled player would have their tank fail before getting things under control. And that's before factoring in the fact that their tank may be less efficient meaning they could still be tanking even less in that 5 minutes.


Personally, I feel if your dps is so low that you end up capping out, then perhaps you should rethink your fit, or stay at a lower level PvE content until your skills catch up
But that might just be me, its what I tell newbros in my corps, and the advice generally holds well

Plus, it's worth teaching newbros about implants that help with their fits also

Of course, if CCP ever get round to rebalancing missions, then cap stability may become alot more important depending how they approach it. As it stands atm, there are only a very few Lvl4 missions that should give trouble to a ok-ish skilled player with a decent fitted ship
Failing that, get a friend/corpie to help you mission, it is a multiplayer game afterall Blink
Ineun
Tungitanium Industrial
#43 - 2014-05-13 14:39:30 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I also think mission runners should stop being terrible and put cap boosters on their ships rather than three cap rechargers or something equally silly.

800's are cheap as ****, require minimal microing and let you use your mids for applying more dps.

I've never liked cap boosters but they are needed for some fits. The Nightmare being a primary example so you can fit your shield mods and still have room for tracking computers. I don't use one on my Paladin mainly because it has plenty of cap without one.


this point even more so if you are a newer player trying to use amarr ships for missions. especially the apoc and abaddon

the cap usage of 8 lasers can really cut down your available cap pool for the repper. even thought the hulls have naturally good cap stats i find i had to tell a friend wanting to use these boats that hes going to need a capbooster and use 400s in it to stay at 30% cap, he was trying to make it cap stable by the usual daft route of sacrificing damage/tracking mods, mobility, and peak tank with cap relays and rechargers

after running a few missions with him in my rather "cap unstable" paladin ( the pallys base cap is so good so you dont need cap mods) that often clears rooms without going into armour, it finally clicked into place for him that in the majority of l4s, damage is usually the best tank you can get,

i got him to switch to a much more ganky fitting based on peak tank/high resists and pulsing the repper when he needs along with a cap boost as the repper cycles. fitting only the cap mods needed only to run the guns stable without the cap booster (2ccc for his megabeam abaddon)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#44 - 2014-05-13 16:11:22 UTC
There is no good reason to use rechargers or whatever instead of boosters.

One cap booster gives as much cap as 3+ of any other module and only takes up one slot. Even saying that its hard for newbies is a bit silly because with a cap booster you will generally be able to burst up your cap really easily.. You might be inefficient with your booster use but it shouldn't lead to death or something..

And more webs/tc's/whatever means your enemies die faster which means you lower incoming dps faster.


Basically the only reason not to use cap boosters is being lazy (Which is valid, missions are terrible)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-05-13 21:40:05 UTC
BigWolfUK wrote:
Personally, I feel if your dps is so low that you end up capping out, then perhaps you should rethink your fit, or stay at a lower level PvE content until your skills catch up
But that might just be me, its what I tell newbros in my corps, and the advice generally holds well

Plus, it's worth teaching newbros about implants that help with their fits also

Of course, if CCP ever get round to rebalancing missions, then cap stability may become alot more important depending how they approach it. As it stands atm, there are only a very few Lvl4 missions that should give trouble to a ok-ish skilled player with a decent fitted ship
Failing that, get a friend/corpie to help you mission, it is a multiplayer game afterall Blink
If CCP should ever get around to a full overhaul of PvE content, I believe we'd see as much of a shift away from cap stability being even remotely viable as they could pull off.

@Garviel Tarrant: Never underestimate the power of laziness. So many ships I've ruined due to not being able to be motivated to press an extra couple of buttons. Ain't nobody got time for that.
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-05-14 06:51:49 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Why does every new player I know in Eve set a goal for their fittings to be cap stable? This is usually at the cost of DPS, range, a prop mod, and spending a ton of ISK. Is there something in the tutorial that suggests you must be cap stable for all your fittings? (－‸ლ)

It's usually for PVE ships but I've even had someone get a PVP frigate fitting and the first thing they said was... "It only has 5 minutes of cap. Should I add a rig to make it cap stable?" I was so tempted to say "Sure buddy because when you get into that hour long battle in your T1 frigate you don't want to run out of cap"


Carebears..

"You really want that cap stable raven"

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-05-14 15:17:39 UTC
Luwc wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Why does every new player I know in Eve set a goal for their fittings to be cap stable? This is usually at the cost of DPS, range, a prop mod, and spending a ton of ISK. Is there something in the tutorial that suggests you must be cap stable for all your fittings? (－‸ლ)

It's usually for PVE ships but I've even had someone get a PVP frigate fitting and the first thing they said was... "It only has 5 minutes of cap. Should I add a rig to make it cap stable?" I was so tempted to say "Sure buddy because when you get into that hour long battle in your T1 frigate you don't want to run out of cap"


Carebears..

"You really want that cap stable raven"


i fly a cap injected mission raven, when i have too ^^
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#48 - 2014-05-14 15:38:31 UTC
Luwc wrote:
Carebears..

Hah! Now you told 'em.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#49 - 2014-05-14 16:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
@IIshira. After circling around it for a while I think I have nailed the thing down. Which is: if you regard this whole cap stability subject, and overtanking for that matter, in terms of a problem (gee, I'd love to have only problems like this) then you addressed the middle of a chain, not a beginning. And it begins with two very important questions: "how much cap/tank do I have" and "how much cap/tank do I need". Let me repeat, the problem begins not just with having wrong answers, they can be corrected, this problem happens when the questions are not being asked or are being asked only partially (e.g. only "have" but not "need").

In this light we can distinguish three groups of people:

#3. Those who know rules but knowingly break them. While I'm more bitter than a vet I assign myself to this group. I know how to tank, I know how much do I need and if I end up with cap stable ubertank it means I had my own reasons so if you come in and say how should I play I reserve every right to say frack off.

#2. Those who know rules exist but refuse to learn them. While I'm tempted to say that those are beyond redemption I also keep reminding myself who am I to judge them. They may have their own reasons, be it industrialists just wanting to grind up standing or members of press-F1-blob. It's their choice, however discussing it with them can prove to be pointless since from their point of view we're trying to fix something which is not broken.

#1. Those who don't know rules or can't figure out correct answers. Our typical noobs. Here, in my opinion, not condemnation but education should be used and teaching them those questions I mentioned at the beginning should be a good start. The downside is that if the community is to be alive we should expect constant influx of such noobs and thus in turn we should expect that always, now and then there will come a dude sporting 3k permatank and being proud of it, true story.
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#50 - 2014-05-14 23:21:12 UTC
When I moved up to level threes I had already decided that cap stable was important, but it was easy for me because I flew mini back then and I fit them with the largest buffer tank I could manage. Passive tank was where it was at because I didn't want to lose another ship due to not being able to warp out. I lost my first cruiser, a rupture, in a lvl 2 because I didn't have enough cap to warp(this was before I trained warp drive operation) and didn't have the skills/knowledge to tank correctly.


This fit got me all the way though lvl 3s and did my early 4s: https://zkillboard.com/kill/25102271/ That was also my first real PVP encounter. I learned how aggro scams worked(before the current system). In lvl 3s it was very much like flying a passive snake. You almost never get below 30% shields, the 1 in 100 missions you do, you leave, dock, come back with more than enough tank. That ship taught me how shield regeneration worked, and from that I learned about cap regen.

After that I flew a maelstrom. That is when I learned that you can have 1:45 of cap and still tank a whole mission. I n00b fit that too. The mids were-adaptive, adaptive, adaptive, x-large, boost amp, boost amp. I also had three CCC I and the lows were silly. Still lessons to learn.

Really, for me, it was just a matter of not wanting to lose a ship because I couldn't perma tank. After the rupture I lost it took me about 6 months to risk flying anything that wasn't cap stable.

I hope this helps to answer your question.
Drunken Angel
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-05-20 06:16:36 UTC
In order to be cap stable I fit large mods to.my archon...
Helena Heffalump
#52 - 2014-05-20 14:28:54 UTC
i fitted a shield hurricane that is not cap stable, the only active thing it has is two adaptive invulns P
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-05-20 14:46:01 UTC
Drunken Angel wrote:
In order to be cap stable I fit large mods to.my archon...

I'm sure you're joking but I knew a pilot that did this....
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#54 - 2014-05-20 15:21:58 UTC
Most noobs need help for the first few months, and there is usually someone that seems willing to help them.
The noob starts to look at this 'helper' as some kind of guru, because this person has
Confidence
Experience
Big Words
When the noob starts hearing terms like 'passive regeneration', 'applied DPS', 'cap stable', etc, they just assume that their mentor knows what he is talking about.

I still remember the ship that popped (it was a mission Raven with a large booster) I couldn't out-boost the incoming dps, but I died cap stable What?
I decided right then that 'cap stable' was over rated, and the whole experience made me start thinking about how to fit ships for ME and MY piloting style.
I didn't cut on the guy who had given me the advice, I just agreed to disagree with him and we flew together for many years.
He was a moderator on Battle Clinic.

Incidentally, he was a guy that fitted 2 small (pith?) reps to his Tengu, while I flew 1 large rep on mine.
I loaned him my ship one night, because his was 20 jumps away. He jumped into a room and got most of his shields alpha'd in 2 volley's, but was able to boost up and stay in to tank for his fleet mates. He admitted that his ship might have died, yet he never changed his fit later.
To each, his own, I guess.
Drunken Angel
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-05-20 16:09:19 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Drunken Angel wrote:
In order to be cap stable I fit large mods to.my archon...

I'm sure you're joking but I knew a pilot that did this....



So do I on a chimeria should battle clinic the loss of athlon jedi. Worst thing issue lost 3 carriers this way.
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