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Crime & Punishment

 
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Noir. [Est. 2008]

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Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#381 - 2014-05-14 01:46:19 UTC
Lucas it's quite obvious both sides talked past each other and failed to specify. That's really what the issue boils down to. Nobody was trying to scam either one. It's two sides failing to communicate and ending up with this.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#382 - 2014-05-14 05:01:56 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Well with all due respect he's not the only one at fault here. I think I outlined a fair middle ground perspective of the issue. And the good news is at this point you guys are still in the portion of the disagreement before someone says something they can't take back. You guys can continue to bicker back and forth but I think it's more beneficial for both sides to realize that there were mistakes made all around. It's hard to be the bigger person and be the first to admit to this but I think it will be better that way. Now it can be scary being the first to say "ok I did this wrong" because the assumption often is the other side will quickly capitalize on that and say "see I was right!" But in most situations like this I believe that if the other person does that, they just look like a bigger tool. If people want to hold on to their grudge and disagreement even more so.

There you go, I've given both of you a way "out." I highly recommend you talk it out, realize both of your own mistakes and move on.


OK, let's try this way. Here is my new post. The most relevant part:

the Noir-me contract failure and its community response becomes free of malice (and full of dumbness instead). Noir are PvP-ers. As soon as I became a partner, I became a "prank mark". They negotiated with the goal of outsmarting me, expecting "kudos" and not tears like Erotica 1 and the real scammers do. If I was a fellow PvP-er, I would have realized that they were smarter than me and deserve respect for being able to do two opposing contracts, not breaching the letter of either. Instead, I called them various lowly things and denied them rewards, strike that, forced their prized titan to not log in for 3 months. In their opinion, this was a very bad sport and I betrayed our connection by not taking defeat "as a man", but going after them.

When I became their partner, I viewed them as teammates working for a common goal, for mutual benefit. I negotiated casually, expecting them to work for me, just like I work for them by being generous with payments (Marmites+Lemmings get from me the price of a supercarrier every month). If they were fellow PvE-ers, they would have done the best possible job for the "kudos" and rewards. When they did not do it, I saw them as traitors. Their unexpected community disaster came from the fact that most people - and all prospective clients - are PvE players, seeing the things as I did. It hit them by surprise, because in their PvP-er echo chamber everyone saw things the same way they did.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Gin Alley
#383 - 2014-05-14 05:09:54 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
the Noir-me contract failure and its community response becomes free of malice (and full of dumbness instead)


So the Marmite Collective has an active war against Northern Coalition dot which is pretty much public enemy #1 for GOON. According to your reasoning you are currently being scammed by Marmite since they are actively helping GOON by shooting Ncdot.

I demand that you demand that Marmite stop helping GOON immediately.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#384 - 2014-05-14 06:11:00 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Well with all due respect he's not the only one at fault here. I think I outlined a fair middle ground perspective of the issue. And the good news is at this point you guys are still in the portion of the disagreement before someone says something they can't take back. You guys can continue to bicker back and forth but I think it's more beneficial for both sides to realize that there were mistakes made all around. It's hard to be the bigger person and be the first to admit to this but I think it will be better that way. Now it can be scary being the first to say "ok I did this wrong" because the assumption often is the other side will quickly capitalize on that and say "see I was right!" But in most situations like this I believe that if the other person does that, they just look like a bigger tool. If people want to hold on to their grudge and disagreement even more so.

There you go, I've given both of you a way "out." I highly recommend you talk it out, realize both of your own mistakes and move on.


OK, let's try this way. Here is my new post. The most relevant part:

the Noir-me contract failure and its community response becomes free of malice (and full of dumbness instead). Noir are PvP-ers. As soon as I became a partner, I became a "prank mark". They negotiated with the goal of outsmarting me, expecting "kudos" and not tears like Erotica 1 and the real scammers do. If I was a fellow PvP-er, I would have realized that they were smarter than me and deserve respect for being able to do two opposing contracts, not breaching the letter of either. Instead, I called them various lowly things and denied them rewards, strike that, forced their prized titan to not log in for 3 months. In their opinion, this was a very bad sport and I betrayed our connection by not taking defeat "as a man", but going after them.

When I became their partner, I viewed them as teammates working for a common goal, for mutual benefit. I negotiated casually, expecting them to work for me, just like I work for them by being generous with payments (Marmites+Lemmings get from me the price of a supercarrier every month). If they were fellow PvE-ers, they would have done the best possible job for the "kudos" and rewards. When they did not do it, I saw them as traitors. Their unexpected community disaster came from the fact that most people - and all prospective clients - are PvE players, seeing the things as I did. It hit them by surprise, because in their PvP-er echo chamber everyone saw things the same way they did.



I don't know if you were a "prank mark" for Alek. The guy works on a pretty simple wave length of the game. Meta isn't his thing. I think at worst, Alek can be accused of not thinking retroactively concerning your contract. Even though not specified, of course he should have considered that you would not be happy about him shooting people going after GSF/Lemmings. But equally you need to specify exactly what you want done so you protect yourself from this sort of thing. Had you specified, Alek could not have done what he did without a boot from the merc contracts channel. Like this he can always say "you didn't specify" even if common sense to most people involved.


@ Gin Alley,

I think the situation is a bit unique in this case. Being sarcastic doesn't really argue your point, it just shows your failure to grasp the difference.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#385 - 2014-05-14 07:07:40 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
OK, let's try this way. Here is my new post. The most relevant part:

the Noir-me contract failure and its community response becomes free of malice (and full of dumbness instead). Noir are PvP-ers. As soon as I became a partner, I became a "prank mark". They negotiated with the goal of outsmarting me, expecting "kudos" and not tears like Erotica 1 and the real scammers do. If I was a fellow PvP-er, I would have realized that they were smarter than me and deserve respect for being able to do two opposing contracts, not breaching the letter of either. Instead, I called them various lowly things and denied them rewards, strike that, forced their prized titan to not log in for 3 months. In their opinion, this was a very bad sport and I betrayed our connection by not taking defeat "as a man", but going after them.

When I became their partner, I viewed them as teammates working for a common goal, for mutual benefit. I negotiated casually, expecting them to work for me, just like I work for them by being generous with payments (Marmites+Lemmings get from me the price of a supercarrier every month). If they were fellow PvE-ers, they would have done the best possible job for the "kudos" and rewards. When they did not do it, I saw them as traitors. Their unexpected community disaster came from the fact that most people - and all prospective clients - are PvE players, seeing the things as I did. It hit them by surprise, because in their PvP-er echo chamber everyone saw things the same way they did.
So again, this boils down to your failure to understand mercenaries. You offered them a payment per kill, and nothing more. It's ludicrous to think that means they are joining "your side", they have a job to do and that's all. Mercs do not take sides. The reason Marmite are different is because Marmite are not mercs, they are just your pets, so they will do whatever you want them to do.

By the way, I think you overstate the whole titan thing. I doubt very much they even remotely care about your bounty. Aside from anything else, it's a tiny bounty for a titan. It's not even worth burning a spy over, which would be the only way to cost effectively take down a titan that may or may not exist. You'll need to dig considerably deeper to have a realistic effect on that front. Like usual though you don't need any proof that you've had an effect, you consider yourself a winner based on your chest beating alone.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-05-14 07:29:02 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
But equally you need to specify exactly what you want done so you protect yourself from this sort of thing. Had you specified, Alek could not have done what he did without a boot from the merc contracts channel. Like this he can always say "you didn't specify" even if common sense to most people involved.


My problem is that I couldn't imagine the need of speciflying such things. Actually if I was a merc and someone would specify such things, I'd be offended. I considered the stuff Noir breached "common decency" that only Jita Scammers breach. Having their own EULA specifying the meaning of words and scope of contracts would help them greatly.

Gin Alley wrote:

So the Marmite Collective has an active war against Northern Coalition dot which is pretty much public enemy #1 for GOON. According to your reasoning you are currently being scammed by Marmite since they are actively helping GOON by shooting Ncdot.

There is no highsec fighting between GSF and NC. The crucial problem wasn't that Noir shoot Lemmings, it was that they shot Lemmings busy shooting Goons. The moment when I put Aleks on ignore was when they popped my destroyer when the bumper battleship DingoGS was in deep armor, ready to follow Reagalan (can't link kills on forum, look up Botslayer Goblin). By doing that, they were actively saving Goons.

Marmite is popping dumbass NC haulers I can't care less about. The only way it can harm my goals if a Goon and an NC undocks the same time and Marmite picks the NC guy. But that could be told for any other wartarget of Marmite. So I should ask them to drop all their other wars, which would be ridiculous. Marmite had 100+ wars when I hired them, I knew that they will shoot other people too.

If NC would send Goon-hunting fleets to highsec I would indeed tell Marmite to pick a side.

Lucas Kell wrote:
So again, this boils down to your failure to understand mercenaries. You offered them a payment per kill, and nothing more. It's ludicrous to think that means they are joining "your side", they have a job to do and that's all. Mercs do not take sides.

I know you have a paplink to click, but this isn't helping them. All clients expect the mercs to be on their side during the contract. A merc who does not, is a merc without clients.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#387 - 2014-05-14 07:48:30 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So again, this boils down to your failure to understand mercenaries. You offered them a payment per kill, and nothing more. It's ludicrous to think that means they are joining "your side", they have a job to do and that's all. Mercs do not take sides.
I know you have a paplink to click, but this isn't helping them. All clients expect the mercs to be on their side during the contract. A merc who does not, is a merc without clients.
No, they don't. No clients expect that. Mercs are mercs specifically because they do not take a side. They do what they are paid to do for whoever is paying them and nothing more. If they take a side, they are no longer mercs, they are simply part of that side.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#388 - 2014-05-14 07:50:36 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

My problem is that I couldn't imagine the need of speciflying such things.


One thing i see needed to be specified is who is the contracter.

Botslayer Goblin look him up you said, but its Gevlen Goblin who hired.

Do the hired know that both toons are the same?

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#389 - 2014-05-14 08:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Man, you guys really are embarrassed by all this... Should have thought before acting huh.

In any case, from my vast experience with ******* up, may I suggest again to be the bigger man and make this whole mess go away? Alek, Own up to your mistake, show you can be proffessional and stop waving arround your handbag.
You never publicise private conversations with your clients. If something is the least bit unclear; clear it up before charging in arse first. And keep your dirty laundry indoors.
Stay classy.

Lucas, stop being purposely obtuse, you are smarter than this. Anyhow, I don't think you get pap for trolling forums but you aren't interested in pap. Why your interest for HISEC mercs and their dealings? Don't have to reply here since this is Noir's thread about getting contracts (be they conflicts of interests or not)
Mercs are Mercs and don't take sides you say? In the last bit of bloodshed in the middle east, the US employed quite a lot of mercs. Are you saying it would have been perfectly fine for those hired guns to attack US Soldiers or obstruct US military ops if some goatherder paid them for the pleasure?

Gevlon, you are now officially playing 'their' game, quite pedestrian if you aks me.

Have at it!

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#390 - 2014-05-14 09:27:45 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Alek, Own up to your mistake, show you can be proffessional and stop waving arround your handbag.
He didn't make a mistake. Gevlon did by thinking mercs follow your agenda implicitly.

Danalee wrote:
You never publicise private conversations with your clients. If something is the least bit unclear; clear it up before charging in arse first. And keep your dirty laundry indoors.
They publicised the mails after Gevlon had already blocked every attempt at them contacting him and he'd posted a blog post accusing them of scamming.

Danalee wrote:
Lucas, stop being purposely obtuse, you are smarter than this. Anyhow, I don't think you get pap for trolling forums but you aren't interested in pap. Why your interest for HISEC mercs and their dealings? Don't have to reply here since this is Noir's thread about getting contracts (be they conflicts of interests or not)
I enjoy these debates, that's why I'm involved. It also helps when one side of the debate is repeated shrieking propaganda though.

Danalee wrote:
Mercs are Mercs and don't take sides you say? In the last bit of bloodshed in the middle east, the US employed quite a lot of mercs. Are you saying it would have been perfectly fine for those hired guns to attack US Soldiers or obstruct US military ops if some goatherder paid the for the pleasure?
That's completely different and you damn well know it. That's a private company being hired to work specifically with the government, they didn't pay them a bounty per kill. In this situation, that's all he did, he offered them a bounty per kill. He also got Marmites to go kill goons too, and you're surprised that Noir took out the competition? Do you honestly believe that when you hire a merc for bounties, they automatically align to your agenda? You're delusional if you do.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#391 - 2014-05-14 13:41:16 UTC
As long as Gob continues to pretend we/I was "out to get him from the beginning" there's really no point in continuing to talk about any of it tbh.

Gob scammed, Gob got caught. Gob tried to smear his victim to get away with it, Gob got caught. Gob thought it wouldn't have consequences, Noir. took away 4 months of his life.

We've been transparent throughout the entire process, defending against Goblin's accusations with raw info including his own words. His own blogging admits that he owes us money but he refuses to pay it because of an increasingly elaborate set of excuses ranging from "they were protecting Goons" to "Alek is Erotica 1." We have tried contacting him multiple times to negotiate with him including involving the Merc Contract channel mods to arbitrate and inviting Gevlon on Declarations of War (as well as Legacy of a Capsuleer or EVE Radio to be released shortly) all of which he has ignored or declined.

From our POV it's over. Nothing will change Goblin's mind, we've already inflicted an appropriate penalty for his actions, and he doesn't seem to care about repairing his reputation. I doubt anyone will kill our titan any time soon and if they did, I strongly doubt it will be because of Goblin's "bounty" since the whole incident spawned out of him refusing to pay bounties in the first place. He and his readers/pets can continue to bleat but the story is pretty much played out and I expect anyone who cares about it has made up their mind one way or the other how to interpret events.

As we've said, if you think and behave like Goblin did/does we are as uninterested in having you as a client as you are hiring us.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2014-05-14 17:36:45 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
As long as Gob continues to pretend we/I was "out to get him from the beginning" there's really no point in continuing to talk about any of it tbh.

Gob scammed, Gob got caught. Gob tried to smear his victim to get away with it, Gob got caught. Gob thought it wouldn't have consequences, Noir. took away 4 months of his life.

We've been transparent throughout the entire process, defending against Goblin's accusations with raw info including his own words. His own blogging admits that he owes us money but he refuses to pay it because of an increasingly elaborate set of excuses ranging from "they were protecting Goons" to "Alek is Erotica 1." We have tried contacting him multiple times to negotiate with him including involving the Merc Contract channel mods to arbitrate and inviting Gevlon on Declarations of War (as well as Legacy of a Capsuleer or EVE Radio to be released shortly) all of which he has ignored or declined.

From our POV it's over. Nothing will change Goblin's mind, we've already inflicted an appropriate penalty for his actions, and he doesn't seem to care about repairing his reputation. I doubt anyone will kill our titan any time soon and if they did, I strongly doubt it will be because of Goblin's "bounty" since the whole incident spawned out of him refusing to pay bounties in the first place. He and his readers/pets can continue to bleat but the story is pretty much played out and I expect anyone who cares about it has made up their mind one way or the other how to interpret events.

As we've said, if you think and behave like Goblin did/does we are as uninterested in having you as a client as you are hiring us.


That's one of the worst apologies I have ever seen.
They say confession is good for the soul. Give it a go Big smile Alek.
Dave Stark
#393 - 2014-05-14 17:52:41 UTC
Joseph Soprano wrote:
They say confession is good for the soul.

i find this highly amusing since your character's avatar is a soulless ginger.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#394 - 2014-05-14 19:10:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:
They say confession is good for the soul.

i find this highly amusing since your character's avatar is a soulless ginger.
Mate, gingers have souls OK?!!111

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#395 - 2014-05-14 19:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Found video of Goblin and Joe. EXPECT THEM

EDIT: Also, Ginger Martin Luther King

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Isabela Valentine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#396 - 2014-05-14 19:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Isabela Valentine
Joseph Soprano wrote:

That's one of the worst apologies I have ever seen.
They say confession is good for the soul. Give it a go Big smile


It was probably the worst apology because it wasn't one.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#397 - 2014-05-14 20:08:34 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

I am a mittani alt!


I knew it!

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#398 - 2014-05-14 20:39:08 UTC
Isabela Valentine wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:

That's one of the worst apologies I have ever seen.
They say confession is good for the soul. Give it a go Big smile


It was probably the worst apology because it wasn't one.

You been trolled!

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#399 - 2014-05-14 22:59:29 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Found video of Goblin and Joe. EXPECT THEM

EDIT: Also, Ginger Martin Luther King


Lol. It looks like a fun reality tv show about a typical American family.

I didn't know Noir not only scammed but have a ginger phobia as well.
Noir's Ginger Prejudice
Solecist Project
#400 - 2014-05-16 12:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:
They say confession is good for the soul.

i find this highly amusing since your character's avatar is a soulless ginger.
Mate, gingers have souls OK?!!111

It's true!

Just look at me...

Every soul I eat...... adds a freckle......

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia