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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

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Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#201 - 2014-05-14 00:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
Here's a video of me highlighting and replication steps of some the issues I've been having with the new tooltip stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emBHRNzMI9E&feature=youtu.be

almost no lense flare / dubstep just my **** voice
plz like comment and subscribe

edit: also it looks like the map hasn't been updated with this new tooltip system so u can see pretty clearly http://puu.sh/8LlJs.png how it would have worked before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#202 - 2014-05-14 00:17:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hey, here's a quick question.

Precisely what problem was this intended to fix? What, in exact terms, was wrong with the old setup?

Information was hard to discover in-game ("Targeting? 20.0 points? What the ****?") and some displays of information were unhelpful. It was hard to tell what ship class you were fighting if you didn't have all of the name -> class mappings memorized (this, memorably, lead to me killing a blackbird in a catalyst because I thought blackbirds were frigates).

Now some different displays are redundant, but others are much more helpful. The scrolling thing and the big black box issues were acknowledged by CCP DelegateZero earlier in the thread. The existence of tooltips at all-- the module tooltips, the tooltips on the fitting window and station services screen-- will be something that vets will likely adapt to and ignore, just as we ignored the old tooltips.

"This is the worst feature since ______" is unhelpful feedback; "This is interfering with my ability to do ________, __________, and ________ because I'm trying to x and instead y happens" is useful stuff that CCP can use to actually improve the feature (or kill it, as they have with loot scatter!). If you're interested in a better game for yourself, I'd suggest using the latter language, or at least pretending you're talking to a real person standing in front of you when drafting your post.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#203 - 2014-05-14 00:18:30 UTC
keybombos for things doesnt update on the new tooltips, so if you are a complete baller and have modules set to
qwert
asdfg
zxv

It wont show in the tooltips. Again, did you even test this?
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#204 - 2014-05-14 00:20:07 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hey, here's a quick question.

Precisely what problem was this intended to fix? What, in exact terms, was wrong with the old setup?

Information was hard to discover in-game ("Targeting? 20.0 points? What the ****?") and some displays of information were unhelpful. It was hard to tell what ship class you were fighting if you didn't have all of the name -> class mappings memorized (this, memorably, lead to me killing a blackbird in a catalyst because I thought blackbirds were frigates).

Now some different displays are redundant, but others are much more helpful. The scrolling thing and the big black box issues were acknowledged by CCP DelegateZero earlier in the thread. The existence of tooltips at all-- the module tooltips, the tooltips on the fitting window and station services screen-- will be something that vets will likely adapt to and ignore, just as we ignored the old tooltips.

"This is the worst feature since ______" is unhelpful feedback; "This is interfering with my ability to do ________, __________, and ________ because I'm trying to x and instead y happens" is useful stuff that CCP can use to actually improve the feature (or kill it, as they have with loot scatter!). If you're interested in a better game for yourself, I'd suggest using the latter language, or at least pretending you're talking to a real person standing in front of you when drafting your post.


this is the worst feature since the new probing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#205 - 2014-05-14 00:22:04 UTC
Longdrinks wrote:
keybombos for things doesnt update on the new tooltips, so if you are a complete baller and have modules set to
qwert
asdfg
zxv

It wont show in the tooltips. Again, did you even test this?


actually i have the same setup as u longbro and it seems to work for me http://puu.sh/8LmnF.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#206 - 2014-05-14 00:25:34 UTC
Okay. I actually tried playing the game with these things on.
Really not happy with this at all. It's very difficult to get the information I actually need, or actually even keep sane. It's very distracting and annoying. I would literally like to log into the same game I logged out of yesterday.
Little Chubby
Atrocity.
#207 - 2014-05-14 00:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Chubby
Ali Aras wrote:
[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]
"This is the worst feature since ______" is unhelpful feedback; "This is interfering with my ability to do ________, __________, and ________ because I'm trying to x and instead y happens" is useful stuff that CCP can use to actually improve the feature (or kill it, as they have with loot scatter!). If you're interested in a better game for yourself, I'd suggest using the latter language, or at least pretending you're talking to a real person standing in front of you when drafting your post.


It's kind of lucky that they're killing loot scatter, because that's pretty much impossible to interact with so long as these tooltips stay.

I mean, they're not TERRIBLE. Unless you need to know what's approaching you, you want to have some kind of situational awareness, you don't want to rearrange and get used to a whole new screen setup, you're a user of manual piloting in solo fights, laggy, unreliable and unresponsive popups annoy you, or you greatly dislike being told the same information in three ways without any ability to control or modify precisely what feedback you get (as you can with damage logs etc).

Other than that, they're great. For new players or those who don't need to react quickly or specifically to things. But that's a big if. Until there's much more user-side control of precisely what's shown and how (and more importantly, what isn't prevented from being shown in the case of the large mega block of death), the entire 'feature' should be removed from live and put back on SiSi.
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#208 - 2014-05-14 00:30:48 UTC
Capqu wrote:
Longdrinks wrote:
keybombos for things doesnt update on the new tooltips, so if you are a complete baller and have modules set to
qwert
asdfg
zxv

It wont show in the tooltips. Again, did you even test this?


actually i have the same setup as u longbro and it seems to work for me http://puu.sh/8LmnF.jpg

my mistake, please dont take this as a excuse to ignore any of the other faults ive highlighted with this new feature.
Moor Deybe
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#209 - 2014-05-14 00:31:04 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
[Bug] Not sure if this is related to this change or not, but the white targeting brackets >< when targeting NPCs on the overview seem to now be behind the red cross instead of in front of them, which makes it very hard to tell if you have something targeted or not.
I agree.

I continually found myself ctrl-clicking on NPC targets thinking I didn't have them targeted already during "The Assault".
Its particularly difficult on battleship sized NPCs as they have bigger crosses.

Some sort of Z-order issue? or just a new graphic?
Can you please reverse the order so the targeted bracket is on top or make it like it was before?
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2014-05-14 00:34:38 UTC
ccp program an option to turn off the super anoying tooltips, most of the info it provides is redundant anyway and just downright disturbing

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#211 - 2014-05-14 00:36:36 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
The game is not made by people who actually play it themselves, this is yet another example of this. Anyone who ACTUALLY plays, beyond afk mining in a mackinaw, would instantly realise this is no good.


Criticism is helpful, just slagging off about a feature is not.

The distinction comes down to this: criticism explains why something is no good. Even better is when you can give constructive criticism: "this new feature takes away the utility I used to have, and makes things more confusing or difficult when I am doing X."

Please try to be helpful, or simply stay out of the thread. There are dozens of posts here already lambasting the tooltip feature, adding your voice to say, "yeah, I hate it too" dilutes the constructive comments in the thread. You could just 'like' all the posts you agree with, or even post about it on your blog, Tweet about it or update your EVE Gate status.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#212 - 2014-05-14 00:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Ali Aras wrote:
Information was hard to discover in-game ("Targeting? 20.0 points? What the ****?") and some displays of information were unhelpful.


I reckon it would be super-nifty to have contextual menus with an extended help option which takes you to the appropriate EVElopedia page. Thus the UI could direct you to the instruction manual, when you ask it to.

Ali Aras wrote:
It was hard to tell what ship class you were fighting if you didn't have all of the name -> class mappings memorised (this, memorably, lead to me killing a blackbird in a catalyst because I thought blackbirds were frigates).


Have CSM been prodding CCP about incorporating the new ship-type icons into the overview and brackets? Even after 7-odd years I still have difficulty remembering that frigates are 6-pixel rectangles, while battleships are 12-pixel rectangles.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
FanU CrotoK
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2014-05-14 00:55:17 UTC
So, actually hovering over a scatter container, the tooltip pops up with the type before it shows up overall, meaning i lose time having to move my mouse off of it, just to move it back to click on it to collect it. F'ing ridiculous, and its overall redundant with what it says on most of them. Make the delay like over a second or two, where if you want the info you can hover for a while, without making it super annoying to do sites until you remove the scatter containers.
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#214 - 2014-05-14 01:06:07 UTC
OK, tooltips and NPE... ALL good stuff!! And for me, after hearing definitively from CCP Seagull that Solo, casual and small gang players are important and WILL be included in the new vision for EVE... this is just one more improvement I can get behind.

I do have a question though (and no I have not checked out the patch yet...) but... for those who don't 'need' em... can the tooltips be disabled? I know very well what my mods do and actually having them pop up ALL the time is a little frustrating. Please consider having this (as many things should) be a choice, not a necessity.

Other than that THANX!!

[http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html]

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#215 - 2014-05-14 01:08:27 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:

"This is the worst feature since ______" is unhelpful feedback; "This is interfering with my ability to do ________, __________, and ________ because I'm trying to x and instead y happens" is useful stuff that CCP can use to actually improve the feature (or kill it, as they have with loot scatter!). If you're interested in a better game for yourself, I'd suggest using the latter language, or at least pretending you're talking to a real person standing in front of you when drafting your post.


Ok.

It makes fleet fights incredibly unpleasant because it causes input delay while trying to cursor over targets. I cannot even imagine what an ordeal being an FC has become. In many cases the tooltip now provides LESS information than the previously existing UI.

It has made it literally lag out my client when there are overlapping stargates or asteroid fields in the same area of space, and I happen to hover over that.

It makes more than a few aspects of the game painfully, brutally unplayable for me. In short it is a nightmare.

So whatever problem this was created to solve, the cure is worse than the disease, and I would like the entire flipping thing rolled back until we can actually get it tested by people who play the game. This feels ill conceived and rushed, and forcing it down everyone's throat is just going to **** people even further.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Torrentula
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2014-05-14 01:11:34 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
The game is not made by people who actually play it themselves, this is yet another example of this. Anyone who ACTUALLY plays, beyond afk mining in a mackinaw, would instantly realise this is no good.


+1. My advice is to fire the person who made this BS in the first place and not testing it. Improving the update itsself isnt even worh it.
Ivan Taredi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2014-05-14 01:20:56 UTC
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:
OK, tooltips and NPE... ALL good stuff!! And for me, after hearing definitively from CCP Seagull that Solo, casual and small gang players are important and WILL be included in the new vision for EVE... this is just one more improvement I can get behind.

I do have a question though (and no I have not checked out the patch yet...) but... for those who don't 'need' em... can the tooltips be disabled? I know very well what my mods do and actually having them pop up ALL the time is a little frustrating. Please consider having this (as many things should) be a choice, not a necessity.

Other than that THANX!!

[http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html]

No. They can't be turned off to the best of my knowledge.
David Gradivus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#218 - 2014-05-14 01:26:57 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Hi,

The team is keeping a close eye on this thread (and the others preceding the dev blog), plus other sources of feedback, and we have some work in progress to adjust some aspects and deal with several cases where the new tooltip format is causing problems.

Specifically, we've been looking initially at:


  • 'Mouse-over on icon column in overview'-only as trigger for new tooltip (this actually would also free us to have different tooltips for specific overview columns if there are cases where that is a benefit in general).

  • Some defects with bracket tooltips (including large numbers of brackets breaking tooltips).

  • Opacity of bracket tooltip listing.

  • Bracket tooltip to not trigger in the case of singleton brackets (this should very much help with the scatter loot as well as other cases).

  • Structures with timers and status information (offline, anchoring, etc) showing in the list-form tooltip for brackets.

  • Some starmap tooltip defects.


That's not an exhaustive list and we've noted the comments about timing issues, among others, but certainly timing is a tricky balance.

Also, we're not going to ignore the points controlling display of tooltips, to the contrary, but we do think this is something that bears thinking about carefully.

We'll keep taking in all the feedback and use it in our ongoing design work. A major focus of this team is on improving new player experience by generally raising the level of the all-round player experience. We know this approach is going to require our close attention to feedback and significant iterative work.



New tooltip changes are bothersome and not needed for most of the playerbase; would suggest before releasing controversial, non-game-play changes such as this that an off/on switch is included. Changes such as this are very disruptive to gameplay for most of your current PAYING subscriber base. Am sure it has caused a dip in activity and is causing some to question CCPs thinking.

I am sure was shown before and probably was on test server but if CCP can't realize In-house why changes like these new tooltips are generally bad then they need to fire some people and hire some that are more critical and aren't afraid to voice it.

CCP is a good company and run a game whose depths and scope are unmatched by any other, but every so often you get a change like this that would have been better time spent furthering what they are already doing. Eve is a game whose raw potential and scope are lost to many people; focus more on showing them what they can have/achieve then increase your ability to provide that.
Drabbin Mishi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2014-05-14 01:26:59 UTC
My problem is that the tooltips on the mini-containers from Data and Relic sites are *MUCH* slower than the old name popups - making it much much more difficult to find and click on the mini-containers that you need to retrieve. MUCH slower.
Harbonah
Short Bus Window Licker
#220 - 2014-05-14 01:32:24 UTC
I have to weight in that the tool tips need an option to disable them. They do indeed make life absolute hell on anyone trying to do Data/ Relic sites or pvp in large groups.

My suggestion: Make the new UI standard for new players. Give an option in setting called "Simplified Tool Tips" that returns the UI back to the original tool tip format.

Life is good for all.