These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Ivan Taredi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2014-05-13 22:40:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

*snip*
And finally, the solar system map, the most atrocious part of this entire mess:
WTF?
Seriously, WTF?
*snip*

Mother of God...
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2014-05-13 22:40:32 UTC
The predictive menu path stuff is all well and good, but the new tooltips are plain daft, why couldn't the guy who implemented these have done something useful instead like:

Create an option to disable the bloody scanner overlay.

Fix the overview so that it remembers sort order for each tab.

Create a shortcut key for 'Orbit at current range'.

Create shortcut keys that open either the Star Map or System Map directly without having to go to the one you don't want to look at first.

Or any one of the 1000 other trivial improvements that the players have been asking for for years?
Oraac Ensor
#163 - 2014-05-13 22:41:10 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.

Yep, I did that in this window.

Nothing happened.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#164 - 2014-05-13 22:42:19 UTC
Ivan Taredi wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

*snip*
And finally, the solar system map, the most atrocious part of this entire mess:
WTF?
Seriously, WTF?
*snip*

Mother of God...


I'm afraid even She won't help here...

Invalid signature format

Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2014-05-13 22:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sniper Smith
I can't get the example shown in the blog, where it tells you what facilities a station has :(

It should really work with you just mouse overing it on the overview.. :/
Ivan Taredi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2014-05-13 22:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivan Taredi
Also, mousing over a skill in my list no longer shows me how much of an increase that training the next level will give. Really don't like that.
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#167 - 2014-05-13 22:51:19 UTC
The tooltip for Autopilot is misleading. It should say something along the lines of:
"Activate the Autopilot to lose your ship and all of your cargo" Big smile
Oraac Ensor
#168 - 2014-05-13 22:55:16 UTC
Quote:
• Overview entries have tooltips showing icon, group name, and status information where applicable

How exactly does the single word "Station" comply with the above?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#169 - 2014-05-13 22:58:23 UTC
Ivan Taredi wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

*snip*
And finally, the solar system map, the most atrocious part of this entire mess:
WTF?
Seriously, WTF?
*snip*

Mother of God...


Please take note, when I say that the new tooltips make the game unplayable, that is precisely what I am talking about.

At this point I think we have proof positive that the UI team does not actually play the game.

Like I said before, in the GD thread, I am pretty much done until this is removed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#170 - 2014-05-13 22:58:55 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:


And finally, the solar system map, the most atrocious part of this entire mess:
WTF?
Seriously, WTF?


Oh god I haven't even looked at the map, it is so bad. Seriously revert all of these changes except the predictive menu feature.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#171 - 2014-05-13 22:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Tooltips for Mass and Inertia are confusing:

Mass Tooltip wrote:
Affects acceleration and turning speed negatively as the mass increases


Inertia Modifier wrote:
Affects acceleration and turning speed positively as the value decreases


Affects … negatively/positively as … increases/decreases. That's bizarre wording which will confuse people rather than help them. Even worse than the obscure wording is that you are saying exactly the same thing two different ways: "affects A negatively as B increases" and "affects A positively as B decreases". The sentences both mean that there is a negative correlation between A and B (i.e.: A ∝ -B). The confusing will arise from the need to hold "affects acceleration and turning speed" in memory while attempting to parse "positively as value decreases". This is because we don't know what the 'affect' is until the second half of the sentence is parsed.

Rephrasing the tooltips in terms of "something I do has some effect" will simplify the wording:

Mass Tooltip wrote:
Increasing the mass reduces acceleration and turning speed.


Inertia Modifier Tooltip wrote:
Increasing the inertia modifier reduces acceleration and turning speed


The reverse phrasing (to have some effect, I should do something) also works: "To increase acceleration and turning speed, reduce mass."

The original wording would be ideal for a patent application, but is not suitable for an instruction manual, and will be downright dangerous in the UI of a combat vessel.

Redundant tooltips are repeating information that is already presented and are redundant, and bulky tooltips obscure interaction space

As a simple guide, if the tooltip doesn't show me information that isn't already available, I don't want to see it. "Stargate" is redundant. "Stargate / next stargate in route" is moderately useful, until I get the idea that the yellow stargate or station is my next thing to warp to. The multi-line tooltips for many objects "stacked" in a group on the view area are very useful, except when I'm trying to target things that don't get put in that tooltip (such as spew containers which break the UI norms by being untargetable and causing the ship to alter behaviour when you click on the icon).

We've lost corp/alliance ticker information that used to live in the old tooltips (or "hints" as CCP called them). This used to be configurable, so you could have the object's name, alliance, corp, type and distance on the hint.

The presence of shortcut keys for buttons that have them assigned is valuable. Thank you!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#172 - 2014-05-13 23:06:10 UTC
Your UI devs ought to be fired. If this is what they come up with then they're not capable of producing the quality of work you need. It's not "there's room for improvement", it's "you ****** up in so many ways including not allowing players to properly test these changes, pushing poorly tested changes onto the live server, obviously not testing these changes yourself, and being generally pants-on-head ********."

You'd think you'd have learned from the unified inventory fiasco but it's very very clear that you haven't.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#173 - 2014-05-13 23:06:45 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.


I'm on OS X. There are no tooltips for window decorations. We have little red, yellow and green buttons which variously close the window, minimise the window to the dock, or "zoom to fit contents" (which does different things depending on the application's interpretation of "zoom", "fit" and "contents").

Tooltips?

We don't need not steenkin' tooltips!

The OS dumps us at the desktop, gives us a mouse pointer, and tells us, "there's your work environment, go do stuff."

OS X has an insubstantive NPE.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2014-05-13 23:09:08 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.

You're right, there's a tooltip.
And the delay for it is so long that I never knew it was there until you told me, for the many years that I've been using Windows.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#175 - 2014-05-13 23:14:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.

You're right, there's a tooltip.
And the delay for it is so long that I never knew it was there until you told me, for the many years that I've been using Windows.


Yeah, I had to sit there for a while before I realized it, almost like it wasn't trying to cram itself down my gullet like a facehugger.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Oraac Ensor
#176 - 2014-05-13 23:21:22 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.

You're right, there's a tooltip.
And the delay for it is so long that I never knew it was there until you told me, for the many years that I've been using Windows.

You're a more patient man than I am. I gave up after 5 minutes.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2014-05-13 23:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.

There is a level of logic in having tooltips for basic functions in an operating system. As a successful operating system needs to assume that a user of said operating system has never used a computer before.

The entirety of the EVE UI was originally designed in such a way that assumed anyone playing EVE had used a computer before playing EVE. A safe assumption, as it would be rather difficult to play EVE before ever using a computer. But the developers responsible for the new tooltips felt it would be necessary ensure 5th dimensional beings capable of engaging in every sort of possible paradoxical behavior (to our deficient brains) would have no trouble playing EVE before they used a computer. A decision which I have no grounds to question. Said beings are apparently a large enough demographic to warrant such functionality, as evidenced by the necessity of this patch.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#178 - 2014-05-13 23:24:06 UTC
The solar system map is a little confusing. The mixture of "stacked tips" and speech bubbles doesn't clearly convey any information.

What would work better for me would be "speech bubbles" which contain stacked tips relating to objects that are close to each other (say, within 1AU, or get smarter and group objects together with their superior celestial such as moon, stargate, planet).

In the example provided earlier, the greatest confusion for me is that planets, asteroid belts and bookmarks get a one-line entry with all their details, while moons get a speech bubble with two lines of details.

What would work better for me is having the moons and asteroid belts indented under their respective planets, or even included as a sub-menu after the planet (for example, an entry for "moons" in the planet's contextual menu, which might be a right-click or radial menu depending on your predilections).

The "i" icon for each moon is not necessary, move the "show info" action to the item's contextual menu.

I look forward to seeing a very quick iteration on the tooltips, especially the redundant "Stargate" tooltips, the missing configurable information on player-owned objects in space, and the confusing graphical vocabulary of the solar system map tooltips.

Thankfully the tooltips haven't broken by usual play style. I will still love you tomorrow.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2014-05-13 23:25:55 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
To everyone complaining that an [X] button on a window shouldn't have a tooltip, please hover over your nearest close window button in any random window and tell me what happens.

You're right, there's a tooltip.
And the delay for it is so long that I never knew it was there until you told me, for the many years that I've been using Windows.

You're a more patient man than I am. I gave up after 5 minutes.

It shows up for me after a few seconds.
I'm quite sure that I could also find a way to turn them off, although that's probably a registry setting or something.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Kaphrah
Thats my BOI
#180 - 2014-05-13 23:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaphrah
Well, after an evening of Incursion, I might quote the well known Eve-Online-RMR video here:

crap, crap, megacrap ~

seriously, it was perfectly fine before and now we have fleets of people raging about this.
Before, I could put the mouse over a bunch ob objects, they were listed immediately, with live information (range etc), had NO DAMN BLACK BACKGROUND keeping the whole scene off my eyes, and simply click or right click on the object I want.

Now, wait for that thing to pop up (if you have a lot of drones it doesn't even pop up in my client), or sometimes just click the object (somehow not everything has a tooltip, some objects in space have... nothing?), and then try to guess what you were looking for. Alliance/Corp tag etc is somewhere in the middle of everything and it takes ages compared to before to find what you need.

Roll it back to the old system and make the new one optional, not everybody wants giant black informationscreens of death that randomly appear under your mouse, and the TRANSPARENT and IMMEDIATE solution from before didn't need any patches imo.

(just talking about the use of it in space, overview and all the other window stuff is even worse)