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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2581 - 2014-05-13 08:18:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'd think the Black ops BS's would be first on the list if any ship to get that. Though honestly considering the cloaks, a somehow penalized covert bridge would complete the set at the very least and complete the mirror of the covert vessels.

This is always the justification presented, but in reality Black Ops have a different role and a Covert Ops cloak isn't essential to their operation. The Nestor can't really function outside of high-sec without a Covert Ops cloak, as it's the slowest and least agile battleship - period.

It's mass actually makes it speed competitive with a prop mod. The low base speed is an unfortunate necessity with it's intended WH friendly mass. Even with the cloak the low agility still makes it quite vulnerable, so I'd still lean more towards wanting covert jump abilities.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2582 - 2014-05-13 08:22:32 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'd think the Black ops BS's would be first on the list if any ship to get that. Though honestly considering the cloaks, a somehow penalized covert bridge would complete the set at the very least and complete the mirror of the covert vessels.

This is always the justification presented, but in reality Black Ops have a different role and a Covert Ops cloak isn't essential to their operation. The Nestor can't really function outside of high-sec without a Covert Ops cloak, as it's the slowest and least agile battleship - period.

It's mass actually makes it speed competitive with a prop mod. The low base speed is an unfortunate necessity with it's intended WH friendly mass. Even with the cloak the low agility still makes it quite vulnerable, so I'd still lean more towards wanting covert jump abilities.


When I tried it on sisi I was unable to get it to move faster than 1100m/s with a mwd and some plating.

I don't think it's fast.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2583 - 2014-05-13 08:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Even with the cloak the low agility still makes it quite vulnerable, so I'd still lean more towards wanting covert jump abilities.

Hence the Covert Ops cloak...

Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I don't think it's fast.

You're not alone in this assessment...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2584 - 2014-05-13 08:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'd think the Black ops BS's would be first on the list if any ship to get that. Though honestly considering the cloaks, a somehow penalized covert bridge would complete the set at the very least and complete the mirror of the covert vessels.

This is always the justification presented, but in reality Black Ops have a different role and a Covert Ops cloak isn't essential to their operation. The Nestor can't really function outside of high-sec without a Covert Ops cloak, as it's the slowest and least agile battleship - period.

It's mass actually makes it speed competitive with a prop mod. The low base speed is an unfortunate necessity with it's intended WH friendly mass. Even with the cloak the low agility still makes it quite vulnerable, so I'd still lean more towards wanting covert jump abilities.


When I tried it on sisi I was unable to get it to move faster than 1100m/s with a mwd and some plating.

I don't think it's fast.

Not the fastest by any stretch, but under a MWD it should fall between the mega and typhoon. OH the MWD should get it above 1.1kms on 2 T2 1600 plates and 3 armor rigs easy unless EFT is totally off.

Edit: Between mega and tempest rather, not typhoon, which is technically still true, but a wider range than intended.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2585 - 2014-05-13 08:38:20 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'd think the Black ops BS's would be first on the list if any ship to get that. Though honestly considering the cloaks, a somehow penalized covert bridge would complete the set at the very least and complete the mirror of the covert vessels.

This is always the justification presented, but in reality Black Ops have a different role and a Covert Ops cloak isn't essential to their operation. The Nestor can't really function outside of high-sec without a Covert Ops cloak, as it's the slowest and least agile battleship - period.

It's mass actually makes it speed competitive with a prop mod. The low base speed is an unfortunate necessity with it's intended WH friendly mass. Even with the cloak the low agility still makes it quite vulnerable, so I'd still lean more towards wanting covert jump abilities.


When I tried it on sisi I was unable to get it to move faster than 1100m/s with a mwd and some plating.

I don't think it's fast.

Not the fastest by any stretch, but under a MWD it should fall between the mega and typhoon. OH the MWD should get it above 1.1kms on 2 T2 1600 plates and 3 armor rigs easy unless EFT is totally off.


If it does, it takes longer Than I was filling to watch while emitting a long sigh, mourning the opportunity that Rise had allowed to slip away with the introduction of an ill-conceived sisters battleship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2586 - 2014-05-13 08:42:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
If it does, it takes longer Than I was filling to watch while emitting a long sigh, mourning the opportunity that Rise had allowed to slip away with the introduction of an ill-conceived sisters battleship.

My husky can finish his dog food in less time than it takes the Nestor to align and initiate jump.
And I should add that my dog is a slow eater...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2587 - 2014-05-13 08:45:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
If it does, it takes longer Than I was filling to watch while emitting a long sigh, mourning the opportunity that Rise had allowed to slip away with the introduction of an ill-conceived sisters battleship.

My husky can finish his dog food in less time than it takes the Nestor to align and initiate jump.
And I should add that my dog is a slow eater...


Hey, I have huskies too! Awesome animals :)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2588 - 2014-05-13 08:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
If it does, it takes longer Than I was filling to watch while emitting a long sigh, mourning the opportunity that Rise had allowed to slip away with the introduction of an ill-conceived sisters battleship.

My husky can finish his dog food in less time than it takes the Nestor to align and initiate jump.
And I should add that my dog is a slow eater...

Honestly, considering the complaints about the mobility of the nestor I'm surprised either of you would bother giving a second thought to the RS. Similar align time, and while the RS is only marginally faster without prop, it falls considerably behind with it with prop due to the mass differences.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2589 - 2014-05-13 09:08:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Honestly, considering the complaints about the mobility of the nestor I'm surprised either of you would bother giving a second thought to the RS. Similar align time, and while the RS is only marginally faster without prop, it falls considerably behind with it with prop due to the mass differences.

The Rattlesnake is an entirely different beast, but I sold mine when they announced the Mordu's Legion ships. I still wouldn't get a Nestor with a Covert Ops cloaking device (not my playing style), but I imagine there are many that would.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2590 - 2014-05-13 09:24:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
If it does, it takes longer Than I was filling to watch while emitting a long sigh, mourning the opportunity that Rise had allowed to slip away with the introduction of an ill-conceived sisters battleship.

My husky can finish his dog food in less time than it takes the Nestor to align and initiate jump.
And I should add that my dog is a slow eater...

Honestly, considering the complaints about the mobility of the nestor I'm surprised either of you would bother giving a second thought to the RS. Similar align time, and while the RS is only marginally faster without prop, it falls considerably behind with it with prop due to the mass differences.


The rattlesnake is very strong and has excellent damage projection. It doesn't need to move. It's an entirely different proposition.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2591 - 2014-05-13 11:33:14 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Honestly, considering the complaints about the mobility of the nestor I'm surprised either of you would bother giving a second thought to the RS. Similar align time, and while the RS is only marginally faster without prop, it falls considerably behind with it with prop due to the mass differences.

The Rattlesnake is an entirely different beast, but I sold mine when they announced the Mordu's Legion ships. I still wouldn't get a Nestor with a Covert Ops cloaking device (not my playing style), but I imagine there are many that would.


Personally, they serve very different roles. The Mordu line really isn't for PvE in any real way, as most of the bonuses they have are focused toward PvP.

Scram range and missile velocity are both totally irrelevant in PvE, so it's really down to the cool factor of their excellent appearance.

Whilst none of the Snake's bonuses are wasted in regards to using them to shoot rats.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2592 - 2014-05-13 11:52:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Honestly, considering the complaints about the mobility of the nestor I'm surprised either of you would bother giving a second thought to the RS. Similar align time, and while the RS is only marginally faster without prop, it falls considerably behind with it with prop due to the mass differences.

The Rattlesnake is an entirely different beast, but I sold mine when they announced the Mordu's Legion ships. I still wouldn't get a Nestor with a Covert Ops cloaking device (not my playing style), but I imagine there are many that would.


Personally, they serve very different roles. The Mordu line really isn't for PvE in any real way, as most of the bonuses they have are focused toward PvP.

Scram range and missile velocity are both totally irrelevant in PvE, so it's really down to the cool factor of their excellent appearance.

Whilst none of the Snake's bonuses are wasted in regards to using them to shoot rats.


One would think 2-3x missile speed as a qol improvement would be positive for missile users, together with slighly more dps.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2593 - 2014-05-13 12:36:56 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

One would think 2-3x missile speed as a qol improvement would be positive for missile users, together with slighly more dps.


Only if you can't count your volleys.

But if we're talking about the battleship, I'd take any other missile L4 boat over that, it has a fairly weak tank overall.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#2594 - 2014-05-13 12:59:39 UTC
They should re-re-do the Snake into a dedicated drone boat now that we have a dedicated missile boat.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....

Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2595 - 2014-05-13 13:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Last Wolf wrote:
They should re-re-do the Snake into a dedicated drone boat now that we have a dedicated missile boat.


They should, but they wont, or if they would, it would still be +50% hp/dam, but now with 50% optimal/speed, wheeeee!!!

Combined weapon ships doing much more damage or having more significant advantages looks much more balanced to a spreadsheet developer, unfortunately.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#2596 - 2014-05-13 15:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Wait untill some of these forum dwellers finally get to try out what they have been mentally masturbating over for the past couple of weeks. The paper dps-centric fantasies will be shattered by the reality that heavy drones still suck, and there are better pirate faction battleships for sniping. There will be no reason to fly a Rattlesnake other than the novelty of using 2 drones instead of 5.


Lets look at what the Rattlesnake is losing again, shall we?

- 400m3 drone bay
-+50%missile velocity bonus
- +50% drone bonus damage and hp on on light and medium drones


And gain.
+1 launcher
+50% missile damage for thermal and kinetic only.


5 drone are better than 2, and the increased reliance on missiles for DPS means much greater susceptibility to e-war. The nerfs are greater than the buffs to a ship that was already considered to be UP.

Why do Guristas have to be the victims of CCP attempts to reduce drone numbers instead doing it to the infinitely more popular Dominix?

The Guristas are very unique already and these changes make no sense at all. How many drone boats are there that have a missile velocity bonus?

Very poorly thought out changes if you ask me. Do the right thing and take it back to the drawing board or you will just have to change it again.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#2597 - 2014-05-13 16:10:14 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Wait untill some of these forum dwellers finally get to try out what they have been mentally masturbating over for the past couple of weeks. The paper dps-centric fantasies will be shattered by the reality that heavy drones still suck, and there are better pirate faction battleships for sniping. There will be no reason to fly a Rattlesnake other than the novelty of using 2 drones instead of 5.


Lets look at what the Rattlesnake is losing again, shall we?

- 400m3 drone bay
-+50%missile velocity bonus
- +50% drone bonus damage and hp on on light and medium drones


And gain.
+1 launcher
+50% missile damage for thermal and kinetic only.


5 drone are better than 2, and the increased reliance on missiles for DPS means much greater susceptibility to e-war. The nerfs are greater than the buffs to a ship that was already considered to be UP.

Why do Guristas have to be the victims of CCP attempts to reduce drone numbers instead doing it to the infinitely more popular Dominix?

The Guristas are very unique already and these changes make no sense at all. How many drone boats are there that have a missile velocity bonus?

Very poorly thought out changes if you ask me. Do the right thing and take it back to the drawing board or you will just have to change it again.


The ship could fit 2.5 flights of heavies and 2 flights of lights before. It can still fit 2.5 flights of heavies and 2 flights of lights. It is getting almost double its current missile DPS, which more than makes up for the 30-40 dps the light drones lost. It is no more susceptible to e-war that is was before.

Unless you fitted your rattle to spew torps to 40km with heavy ECM drones, the new rattle will do everything it used to do, even better.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....

Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#2598 - 2014-05-13 16:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Last Wolf wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Wait untill some of these forum dwellers finally get to try out what they have been mentally masturbating over for the past couple of weeks. The paper dps-centric fantasies will be shattered by the reality that heavy drones still suck, and there are better pirate faction battleships for sniping. There will be no reason to fly a Rattlesnake other than the novelty of using 2 drones instead of 5.


Lets look at what the Rattlesnake is losing again, shall we?

- 400m3 drone bay
-+50%missile velocity bonus
- +50% drone bonus damage and hp on on light and medium drones


And gain.
+1 launcher
+50% missile damage for thermal and kinetic only.


5 drone are better than 2, and the increased reliance on missiles for DPS means much greater susceptibility to e-war. The nerfs are greater than the buffs to a ship that was already considered to be UP.

Why do Guristas have to be the victims of CCP attempts to reduce drone numbers instead doing it to the infinitely more popular Dominix?

The Guristas are very unique already and these changes make no sense at all. How many drone boats are there that have a missile velocity bonus?

Very poorly thought out changes if you ask me. Do the right thing and take it back to the drawing board or you will just have to change it again.


The ship could fit 2.5 flights of heavies and 2 flights of lights before. It can still fit 2.5 flights of heavies and 2 flights of lights. It is getting almost double its current missile DPS, which more than makes up for the 30-40 dps the light drones lost. It is no more susceptible to e-war that is was before.

Unless you fitted your rattle to spew torps to 40km with heavy ECM drones, the new rattle will do everything it used to do, even better.




There is no need a missile damage bonus to make up for lost anything. The is a ship that has been considered UP. Why take things away from it?

You can't grasp this simple concept?

Also, still bieng able to fit 2.5 (wtf?) flights of heavys and 2 flights of lights doesn't make up for the fact that this is a large nerf in done bay and versatility for the Rattlesnake.

You wrong about it not being more susceptible to e-war, too. The increased reliance on missiles for DPS means the majority of DPS will be shut down when jammed. The unbonused lights and medium will not perform nearly as well as they do on the current Rattlesnake, given that damage amplification will be more preferable on missiles than drones.

Think before you post. Actually... just stop posting.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#2599 - 2014-05-13 16:32:12 UTC
Lin, At optimal Sentrys have near perfect application. BUT based of your play-style from earlier, I take it you are flying with heavy drones and torps. Which is the Only fit that is being nerfed. ANd as i pointed out in that post, It has more DPS with cruise missiles than it currently does with torps. Also, if your jammed then your drones are unagroed, Meaning you are still dealing 50% of your damage.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#2600 - 2014-05-13 16:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Lin, At optimal Sentrys have near perfect application. BUT based of your play-style from earlier, I take it you are flying with heavy drones and torps. Which is the Only fit that is being nerfed. ANd as i pointed out in that post, It has more DPS with cruise missiles than it currently does with torps. Also, if your jammed then your drones are unagroed, Meaning you are still dealing 50% of your damage.


I can use sentries when if battleships should get out of range of my torps.

I don't know what you mean about the drones being unaggroed. I press F on a frigate once and they kill everything small on their own. The medium drones do a great job on the cruisers. I only have to worry about locking the battleships, which are much easier than smaller ships to reacquire after being jammed. When drones are solely responsible for destroying all enemy frigates and cruisers, the +50 bonus damage and HP helps enormously.

It is really nice that the drones usually finish their job first, then I can take out the salvage drones (something I won't have enough drone bay space for with the proposed changes) while I mop up the remaining Battleships with missiles. Easy.

People are getting hung up on the Snake as a sniper and that is not the only way it is played. There are battleships that tank better and battleships that snipe better.

The Snakes role was versatility. No reason for CCP to change that. It has a role and there is no real overlap. Give it an extra low slot to bring its DPS up a bit and it will be perfectly fine for what it does.

I wish they would bring super drones to Mordus instead. These pirate faction battleships are very SP intensive and to change them so drastically and so unnecessarily is a callous way to treat your customers.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049