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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#261 - 2014-05-13 01:48:26 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So what your saying is that without a doubt you will need 3 rigors on your new phoenix. Thanks for clarifying that every other capital missile rig is worthless now and the handful of people who have been building the rigors are all now gonna get rich

Rigors are and will be the best missile rigs by far as far as the Phoenix is concerned. Flares will be worthless until they are rebalanced, using straight up DPS rigs isn't worth it when your application is ****, and range rigs will be somewhat situational. In other words, the importance of the rigs will remain largely unchanged.

Anyway I doubt these changes are going to make the Phoenix too much more popular than it currently is, so I wouldn't start market speculating quite just yet. Of course there's the chance that the fact that something at all is done about the ship will make people interested in it, but I wouldn't count on that.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#262 - 2014-05-13 01:50:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#263 - 2014-05-13 01:52:43 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So what your saying is that without a doubt you will need 3 rigors on your new phoenix. Thanks for clarifying that every other capital missile rig is worthless now and the handful of people who have been building the rigors are all now gonna get rich

Rigors are and will be the best missile rigs by far as far as the Phoenix is concerned. Flares will be worthless until they are rebalanced, using straight up DPS rigs isn't worth it when your application is ****, and range rigs will be somewhat situational. In other words, the importance of the rigs will remain largely unchanged.

Anyway I doubt these changes are going to make the Phoenix too much more popular than it currently is, so I wouldn't start market speculating quite just yet. Of course there's the chance that the fact that something at all is done about the ship will make people interested in it, but I wouldn't count on that.


Im not counting on it either. But i was trying to be ironic in the fact that moros nag and rev kills often have all manner of rigs. But the phoenix is shoehorned into using only rigors
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2014-05-13 02:02:43 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Burneddi wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So what your saying is that without a doubt you will need 3 rigors on your new phoenix. Thanks for clarifying that every other capital missile rig is worthless now and the handful of people who have been building the rigors are all now gonna get rich

Rigors are and will be the best missile rigs by far as far as the Phoenix is concerned. Flares will be worthless until they are rebalanced, using straight up DPS rigs isn't worth it when your application is ****, and range rigs will be somewhat situational. In other words, the importance of the rigs will remain largely unchanged.

Anyway I doubt these changes are going to make the Phoenix too much more popular than it currently is, so I wouldn't start market speculating quite just yet. Of course there's the chance that the fact that something at all is done about the ship will make people interested in it, but I wouldn't count on that.


Im not counting on it either. But i was trying to be ironic in the fact that moros nag and rev kills often have all manner of rigs. But the phoenix is shoehorned into using only rigors



Standard is usually two tank and a weapon rig, usually tracking for fleet builds.
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#265 - 2014-05-13 02:06:24 UTC
It's disappointing to see the extent of personal attacks against CCP employees in this thread, but at the same time the actual criticism of the proposed changes is largely correct.

These changes are inelegant and fail to accomplish the goals you have stated for them. Please, shelf this idea and find a better way (probably by balancing missiles across the board before you even touch the Phoenix).
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-05-13 02:44:16 UTC
I really wish they improved the base damage instead of RoF. One of the nice things about the missiles is you did not use nearly as many of them.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#267 - 2014-05-13 06:09:47 UTC
This is turning into a slippery slope change. Adjusting a single ship/weapon combo is now spreading to direct changes to an entire hull class and a multitude of structure. WHERE.... will it. END? [/shatner]

Put these changes on hold and do a proper balance pass on capital weapon systems. This is turning into a mess.

Overhaul Dscan!
LujTic
Green Visstick High
#268 - 2014-05-13 09:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: LujTic
It seems strange to me that the smallest dread (Naglfar) has the largest cargo bay. Now that you have raised the RoF on the Phoenix, you might want to increase its cargo capacity as well.
edit: or reduce the volume of the citadel missiles

btw +1 for rebalancing missiles in general
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#269 - 2014-05-13 11:48:31 UTC
Could we perhaps back up a bit and get some info on exactly what the role of the Phoenix is intended to be? Then changes can be made accordingly.

To be honest looking back at this it seems there is no defined vision for where capital missiles fit in, and I won't hold my breath for that changing. Ok, not wanting them to blap subcaps fair enough I suppose, but then you turn around say it's fine for them to not even hit a capital for full damage?

Can't you just give the Phoenix hybrids until you figure out what you want out of this weapon system? Because "not as good as turrets in every possible situation" is not a role.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#270 - 2014-05-13 11:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Onictus wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Burneddi wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
So what your saying is that without a doubt you will need 3 rigors on your new phoenix. Thanks for clarifying that every other capital missile rig is worthless now and the handful of people who have been building the rigors are all now gonna get rich

Rigors are and will be the best missile rigs by far as far as the Phoenix is concerned. Flares will be worthless until they are rebalanced, using straight up DPS rigs isn't worth it when your application is ****, and range rigs will be somewhat situational. In other words, the importance of the rigs will remain largely unchanged.

Anyway I doubt these changes are going to make the Phoenix too much more popular than it currently is, so I wouldn't start market speculating quite just yet. Of course there's the chance that the fact that something at all is done about the ship will make people interested in it, but I wouldn't count on that.


Im not counting on it either. But i was trying to be ironic in the fact that moros nag and rev kills often have all manner of rigs. But the phoenix is shoehorned into using only rigors



Standard is usually two tank and a weapon rig, usually tracking for fleet builds.


Depends, really. A WH Phoenix would normally use SMCs like a Nag for anticapital work. You'll probably see some Rigour fits but it's just so much easier to do the blap thing with Nags and Moroses at 30-40 km with webbing support that the main reason for doing so would be "lol surprise", just as present.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#271 - 2014-05-13 14:29:34 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:


....

Depends, really. A WH Phoenix would normally use SMCs like a Nag for anticapital work. You'll probably see some Rigour fits but it's just so much easier to do the blap thing with Nags and Moroses at 30-40 km with webbing support that the main reason for doing so would be "lol surprise", just as present.


Its so much harder to do the blap thing at 50km with moros and naglfar compared to this rather nice Pheonix.

What is it with people who want their ship to do everyting. I have noted already, the guns are the problem, way off whack from their non capital variants. There is virtually no distinction from Blaster/Auto, and little from Pulse.

The full damage Pheonix fit will tank like a boss, have consistent damage output with choice, and have superb range. No 'miss' or 'critical'. Stop bleating about blapping BS targets. My Capital guns get 'barely scratched' on a static pos in optimal, as well as some whomping shots.. Missiles NEVER bloody miss.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#272 - 2014-05-13 14:35:54 UTC
Quote:

The full damage Pheonix fit will tank like a boss, have consistent damage output with choice, and have superb range. No 'miss' or 'critical'. Stop bleating about blapping BS targets. My Capital guns get 'barely scratched' on a static pos in optimal, as well as some whomping shots.. Missiles NEVER bloody miss
.

Yeah and missiles never get wrecking hits. Thats a really really pointless argument.
Also nags and moros have no problems blapping at 50km. Just switch out your tc scripts. Actually it might even be easier in some cases.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#273 - 2014-05-13 14:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

I can honestly say that I am not overly worried that carriers being able to reduce a portion of citadel missile damage through the use of gang links and/or halo implants will break the balance involved with these ships. The Phoenix is going to be doing a lot more damage in virtually all realistic situations compared to today and it will be doing it while also benefitting from the resist bonus and omni damage.

That being said, I think there is an opportunity here to both reduce the impact of skirmish links on Phoenixes while also differentiating dreads and carriers a bit. The fact that dreads and carriers have almost identical signature radius has never made much sense, and it is entirely appropriate for stationary dreads to have a much harder time mitigating missile damage.

So we're going to go ahead and increase the sig radius of all four dreads alongside this change:

Revelation:
Signature Radius: 4100 (+1125)

Naglfar:
Signature Radius: 4000 (+1140)

Moros:
Signature Radius: 4300 (+1255)

Phoenix:
Signature Radius: 4200 (+1100)


there would be no need to do this if you just didnt change the explosion radius. My math i posted earlier showed a minor, minor change if you didn't. It was like 50% more damage vs a moving battleship but that meant 12% base damage vs 8% base damage. And against a moving archon it was 40% post radius nerf, 48 pre-radius (new explosion velocity.)

Now you are thinking of only increasing dread sig? Carriers, rorquals, freights and jf. its easier to just not increase explosion radius.



I am redoing my math because i think i stated the wrong data.



CCP Fozzie wrote:



We're buffing the explosion velocity of Citadel Cruises by 38%, and nerfing their explosion radius by 14%.
We're buffing the explosion velocity of Citadel Torps by 75%, and nerfing their explosion radius by 50%.

One side effect of such significant changes is that the Torps would start doing reduced damage to starbase modules and to small towers themselves. So we're increasing the sig radius of all starbase structures that sit outside the shields from 2000 to 3000, small towers from 2000 to 4000 and medium towers from 4000 to 5000.

Let me know what you think.


Stat || Current (No Skills) || Post (no skills)
Nova C. torp
DRF: 5.5 (1 after the math is done)
Radius: 2000m || 3000m
Ex. Vel.: 20m/s || 35m/s
B. Dmg: 2000

Nova c. Cruise
DRF: 4.5 (0.88 after the math is done)
Radius: 1750m || 2000m
Ex. Vel.: 29m/s || 40m/s
B. Dmg: 1500

Stat || Current (Level V) || Post (Level V)
Nova C. torp
DRF: 5.5 (1 after the math is done)
Radius: 1500m || 2250m (-25%)
Ex. Vel.: 30m/s || 52.5m/s (+50%)
B. Dmg: 2750

Nova C. Cruise
DRF: 4.5 (0.88 after the math is done)
Radius: 1312.5m || 1500m (-25%)
Ex. Vel.: 45m/s || 60m/s (+50%)
B. Dmg: 2063

Megathron (no fitting)
Sig: 380
Velocity: 153 (All level 5)

Archon (no fitting)
Sig : 2920
Velocity: 87.5 (all level 5)



Broken down, the math becomes the following,
Missile Damage = the lowest of:

Base Damage * 1
not allowing more than base damage
Base Damage * (Target signature / explosion radius)
If the target is sitting still, aka "0 missile transversal"
Base Damage * [ (Target signature / explosion radius) * (explosion velocity / Target Velocity) ] ^ [ ln(drf) / ln(5.5)]
If the target is moving


Lets compare:

Vs Archon, moving:
Old Cruise:
BD * [(2920/1312.5)*(45/87.5)]^.88
bd * [(2.22)*(.51)]^.88
BD * 1.11 = BD * 1

New Cruise
BD * [(2920/1500)*(60/87.5)]^.88
BD * [(1.94)*(.68)]^0.88
BD * 1.27 = BD * 1
No change

Old Torp:
BD * [(2920/1500)*(30/87.5)]
bd * [(1.94)*(.34)]
BD * 0.66

New Torp
BD * [(2920/2250)*(52.5/87.5)]
BD * [(1.30)*(.6)]
BD * 0.78
+12% increase in damage vs a moving Archon


Vs Megathon, moving:
Old Cruise:
BD * [(380/1312.5)*(45/153)]^.88
bd * [(0.29)*(0.29)]^.88
BD * 0.11

New Cruise
BD * [(380/1500)*(60/153)]^.88
BD * [(.25)*(.39)]^0.88
BD * .13
+20% damage vs Moving BS

Old Torp:
BD * [(380/1500)*(30/153)]
bd * [(.25)*(.95)]
BD * 0.049

New Torp
BD * [(380/2250)*(52.5/153)]
BD * [(.17)*(.34)]
BD * 0.058
+20 Damage vs moving BS

Vs Megathon, moving:
New Cruise, old radius:
BD * [(380/1312.5)*(60/153)]^.88
BD * [(0.29)*(.39)]^0.88
BD * 0.147
+33% damage vs moving BS

New Torp, old radius:
BD * [(380/1500)*(52.5/153)]
BD * [(0.25)*(.34)]
BD * 0.085
+73% damage vs moving BS


While the +73% damage sounds over powered:
2750 * 0.085 = 233.75 damage THEN add resists of the hostile. 50% is the default explosive resist on shields, so that would reduce it to under 150 damage per missile.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#274 - 2014-05-13 15:21:04 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Quote:

The full damage Pheonix fit will tank like a boss, have consistent damage output with choice, and have superb range. No 'miss' or 'critical'. Stop bleating about blapping BS targets. My Capital guns get 'barely scratched' on a static pos in optimal, as well as some whomping shots.. Missiles NEVER bloody miss
.

Yeah and missiles never get wrecking hits. Thats a really really pointless argument.
Also nags and moros have no problems blapping at 50km. Just switch out your tc scripts. Actually it might even be easier in some cases.


The pointless argument is the one where missiles should do what guns do. They are not the same. They have benefits and drawbacks. The phoenix has new, considerable benefits.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#275 - 2014-05-13 18:24:56 UTC
I don't understand why people feel the need that the Phoenix should be able to blap subcapitals.

Look, with this change its engagement profile has shot up significantly.

+selectable damage
+DPS buff
+tank buff
+still biggest volley damage

I will gladly trade the ability to blap subcaps for being the best in anti-capital warfare.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#276 - 2014-05-13 18:41:49 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
I don't understand why people feel the need that the Phoenix should be able to blap subcapitals.

Look, with this change its engagement profile has shot up significantly.

+selectable damage
+DPS buff
+tank buff
+still biggest volley damage

I will gladly trade the ability to blap subcaps for being the best in anti-capital warfare.



The thing is a phoenix cannot blap a sub-cap.

New Torps: 5.8% of base damage, 160 damage, is dealt to a megathron without resists.
New Torps without the explosion radius nerf: 8.5% or 233.75 damage.

The new cruise do 13% of base damage, 268 damage per missile, against battleships. Add a t2 siege and that becomes 2500 damage per missile, times 3 missiles is 7500 damage, assuming 0% resist. If they did not modify the explosion radius it would be 14.7% base damage, 2820 damage per missile in siege, or 8460 for 3 then add the resists.

There is no need for the radius nerf, you would only blap webbed and painted subcaps, which other dreads can already do.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#277 - 2014-05-13 19:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
I don't understand why people feel the need that the Phoenix should be able to blap subcapitals.

Look, with this change its engagement profile has shot up significantly.

+selectable damage
+DPS buff
+tank buff
+still biggest volley damage

I will gladly trade the ability to blap subcaps for being the best in anti-capital warfare.

That'd be great if only it worked like that in practice. As numerous people in the thread have pointed out, the Phoenix unfortunately isn't able to apply properly to other capitals either. It still can't apply all of its damage without rigors to eg. a triaged Archon, and wouldn't be able to apply to sieged Dreads either if their signature radius wasn't increased a lot along with these changes.

These changes make the Phoenix better at hitting stuff that's mitigating some of its damage through speed. This was never an issue on capitals on the old Phoenix, really, although moving slowcats could in theory mitigate some damage through moving at their maximum velocity if the Phoenix had no Rigors fit or no one was painting the slowcat. In other words, these changes actually make the Phoenix better at hitting subcaps and worse at hitting stuff it's supposed to hit, eg. stationary capital ships.

I've posted quite a bit in this thread about this, but since they're long intimidating posts I doubt many people have read them. In short, the changes make the Phoenix 50% worse at applying damage to stationary targets, and 25% better at applying damage to moving targets. Stationary and moving in this context mean whether or not the target is mitigating damage through speed. You can figure out the minimum speed the target has to move to be considered moving from the equation targetSigRadius / missileExplosionRadius * missileExplosionVelocity.

This means that unless the sigradius of triaged Carriers is significantly increased, the new Phoenix will only apply about 86% of its total damage to an Archon with links that is doing absolutely nothing, and that is assuming the Phoenix pilot has Guided Missile Precision V. At GMP IV, that Archon would only take 81.5% damage from the Phoenix. The same would've applied to POS modules and dreads, but their signatures were significantly increased just so that these changes wouldn't completely ruin the Phoenix against them.

However, it also means that the Phoenix becomes a bit better at hitting stuff it's not supposed to hit. In my post on the previous page I included some examples of practical effects of these changes. In short, Phoenix becomes better at blapping cruisers and worse at blapping battleships.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#278 - 2014-05-13 21:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Xavier Thorm wrote:
It's disappointing to see the extent of personal attacks against CCP employees in this thread, but at the same time the actual criticism of the proposed changes is largely correct.

These changes are inelegant and fail to accomplish the goals you have stated for them. Please, shelf this idea and find a better way (probably by balancing missiles across the board before you even touch the Phoenix).


The reason people get mad is because its a slight buff that comes with a nerf Then instead of directly just fixing it, they start changing other mechanics of the game.

Yet they still mostly ignore the problem and then they barely give responses to players who know needs to be done. The phoenix has sucked for years and capital missiles as well. So when after years of people being angry of it being so bad, and then they half arse the fixes.

Wouldnt you be mad too?
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#279 - 2014-05-13 22:13:32 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:
It's disappointing to see the extent of personal attacks against CCP employees in this thread, but at the same time the actual criticism of the proposed changes is largely correct.

These changes are inelegant and fail to accomplish the goals you have stated for them. Please, shelf this idea and find a better way (probably by balancing missiles across the board before you even touch the Phoenix).


The reason people get mad is because its a slight buff that comes with a nerf Then instead of directly just fixing it, they start changing other mechanics of the game.

Yet they still mostly ignore the problem and then they barely give responses to players who know needs to be done. The phoenix has sucked for years and capital missiles as well. So when after years of people being angry of it being so bad, and then they half arse the fixes.

Wouldnt you be mad too?


Nope. I definitely wouldn't be mad enough to call the developers idiots or other such insults that I've seen slung around in this thread, as I really don't see the point in that. I would, as I just did, point out in a simple and direct manner that I think this change should be shelved, and what my reasons for thinking that are.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#280 - 2014-05-14 00:40:08 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:
It's disappointing to see the extent of personal attacks against CCP employees in this thread, but at the same time the actual criticism of the proposed changes is largely correct.

These changes are inelegant and fail to accomplish the goals you have stated for them. Please, shelf this idea and find a better way (probably by balancing missiles across the board before you even touch the Phoenix).


The reason people get mad is because its a slight buff that comes with a nerf Then instead of directly just fixing it, they start changing other mechanics of the game.

Yet they still mostly ignore the problem and then they barely give responses to players who know needs to be done. The phoenix has sucked for years and capital missiles as well. So when after years of people being angry of it being so bad, and then they half arse the fixes.

Wouldnt you be mad too?


Nope. I definitely wouldn't be mad enough to call the developers idiots or other such insults that I've seen slung around in this thread, as I really don't see the point in that. I would, as I just did, point out in a simple and direct manner that I think this change should be shelved, and what my reasons for thinking that are.


So as often the devs ignore posts and what the far more learned player base knows and spends their waking hours on this game and more so than the devs, then they push through a ridiculous change that everyone knows is wrong and the devs basically say they do not care, and you dont expect people to be frustrated or mad because they were blown off ?

Surely that wouldnt cause people to respond harshly at all would it?

Think of it in terms of you being a coccain addict and your dealer is charging you the same price for the drugs but they are cutting it with baking powder. Make sense yet?