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The Office of the Chairman: A ~chill place~ for constituent issues

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Space Products Distribution
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#301 - 2011-12-01 21:02:29 UTC
Plug in a single +3 for the primary attribute of whatever you're learning. It costs 8 mil and will get you 50% of the benefit of a full set of +4s.

Revisit the cost/benefit tradeoff in a few months when you're less of a newbie.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2011-12-01 22:59:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Dear Mittani,

As a newbie I'm currently at the point where I can either:
-Train skills ludicrously slower than everyone else
-Get podded with millions in learning implants every day (something which I can't afford forever)
-Not play this game except to change skills for the next six months

I don't know about you but there's no way I'm grinding my mission corp standings to +8.0 to get some jump clones for those times where I want to actually play.


Why can't we just get rid of learning implants, get +4 to all stats for free, and get remaps every month?

Oh and a bunch of new boosting implants to offset the loss of so much ''valuable content'' would be pretty cool.





If you're going to go that far, why not just take it to the logical conclusion and propose that we get rid of stats altogether?


You're right. Why the **** not? This isn't D&D.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#303 - 2011-12-01 23:15:17 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
E man Industries wrote:

So is there any drive behind the CSM to have quicker PvP in 0.0? Not all 0.0 players are from huge alliances and love the huge alliance ops.

Big fights are great and alliances need to have them, but day to day smaller scale skirmishes need to be taking place. These skirmishes need to be accessible in a 1-2h play slot.
0.0 needs to be fun!

Thanks I hope to shoot you soon.
Edit:

I sure you are aware of the above issue as you are attempting to set up a similar thunderdome of pvp-ness to address this via goonswarm.
Pilots in every area of 0.0 space shoudl have access to good fights.
not asking for cpp to change 0.0 or sov or anything as big fightd have there place but currently good fights are hard to come by.


I'm in a similar mental place; most of my pvp these days is ganking or gatecamping or World of Tanks. I don't like waiting for hours on major fleet ops to fight a fight; I'm lazy. This is a common problem for veterans, who have been playing for ages - this is also why vets end up in cap ships, because you can play a game in another window until it's cyno time, and then you either fight or die or go back to playing in another window. Less 'schlepping'.

It's extremely controversial and the CSM is divided on it, but personally I'd like to see some kind of an arena or instanced PvP setup which would allow professionals with busy lives to log in, blow some dudes up, and log off. The actual mechanics of such a device don't interest me much - it could be a gladiatorial arena with spectators who can place bets, a 'combat simulator', an arranged 4v4 team game, whatever.

The macro-level issue is what concerns me: the fact that, as a PvPer, it's very hard to get a PvP experience within a short time of logging in. Missionrunners and miners can boot up EVE and begin slaving away at their PvE in moments, PvPers not so much.

One of the reasons you see EVE's PvP population in BF3, LoL/HoN and WoT is precisely that they allow us to get PvP fixes on demand. It sure would be nice if we could get an on-demand PvP experience involving spaceships, too.

However, some are hostile to the very idea of arenas or instanced combat or even 'quick PvP'. I haven't focused on this as a 'CSM Issue' because it doesn't much matter if we get on-demand PvP or not while the Sucking Chest Wounds need to be patched. Once the game is not being driven off a cliff hopefully I can step back and push for stuff like this.

I must admit I don't really like the idea of arenas. It seems kind of... WoWy. But on the other hand there's the neglected barely-living carcass of Factional Warfare that would be perfect for getting frankensteined into something that could provide some kind of decent on-demand pvp concept.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#304 - 2011-12-02 00:57:17 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
As a newbie I'm currently at the point where I can either:
-Train skills ludicrously slower than everyone else
-Get podded with millions in learning implants every day (something which I can't afford forever)
-Not play this game except to change skills for the next six months


A game is forcing me to make choices, and not just take the single minmaxed optimal path! Oh, the HORRORS!
Sephiroth Clone VII
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#305 - 2011-12-02 01:33:35 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
As a newbie I'm currently at the point where I can either:
-Train skills ludicrously slower than everyone else
-Get podded with millions in learning implants every day (something which I can't afford forever)
-Not play this game except to change skills for the next six months


A game is forcing me to make choices, and not just take the single minmaxed optimal path! Oh, the HORRORS!


Do you pvp on the weekend or every day. Weekend warrior could accept a small drop in points for 1-2 days.

also millions, or hundreds of millions (you don't need to use 5s on each attrabute all the time, get two 3-4 of the skills you training the most). Millions on themselves are like nothing, they are like the common unit used to get any decent mods or ship. What do you PVP in a veletor? PVP usualy takes investment of tech 2 mods to win unless you rifter warrior, or some serious lolfits.

Anyway, if you expect to get podded every day, you doing crazy risks for a poor noob.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2011-12-02 01:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
As a newbie I'm currently at the point where I can either:
-Train skills ludicrously slower than everyone else
-Get podded with millions in learning implants every day (something which I can't afford forever)
-Not play this game except to change skills for the next six months


A game is forcing me to make choices, and not just take the single minmaxed optimal path! Oh, the HORRORS!


Name me a MMO where leveling a single skill to the final level takes months. Some of you guys have an eight year headstart on new players, and unlike the dreaded WOW which keeps making leveling easier for new players, there's simply no way to catch up for us, no matter how motivated we are. That, I can deal with. But seriously, in this game learning a level 5 battleship skill actually takes longer than learning real-life multivariable calculus.


Now, do we really want to encourage people to NOT take risks and spend years shooting defenseless NPC red dots and asteroids in highsec?

A game is forcing me to make choices. Please forgive me for wanting to chose the blasphemous minmaxed path of maximum fun and minimized boredom. Planning for the future, boredom now and riches later, is something that should stay confined to real life.

Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:

Anyway, if you expect to get podded every day, you doing crazy risks for a poor noob.

Well I actually expect to pod other people everyday, but my expectations sadly fall short of reality.
I wasn't aware that there was an interstellar standard for ''Crazy risks newbies should not be taking''.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Velicitia
XS Tech
#307 - 2011-12-02 02:15:05 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:

Name me a MMO where leveling a single skill to the final level takes months. Some of you guys have an eight year headstart on new players, and unlike the dreaded WOW which keeps making leveling easier for new players, there's simply no way to catch up for us, no matter how motivated we are. That, I can deal with. But seriously, in this game learning a level 5 battleship skill actually takes longer than learning real-life multivariable calculus.



you don't *HAVE* to get L5 Battleships (unless of course you're looking to get into a dread/carrier/super).

Having L4 across the board will put you AT MOST about 15% behind someone with L5 skills across the board in the same fit.

Let's take the Megathron for example, fitted with Neutron Blasters

5% damage per level of Battleships to large hybrids.
5% damage per level of Large Hybrid Turret
3% damage per level of Surgical Strike

so, 13% less with you having 4/4. The ROF bonuses and other things will play into this too, but I'm looking just at volley damage (because seriously, I don't want to really figure out what a 4% difference in ROF does throughout the course of an engagement).

so, that's ~60 days saved right there that you maybe used to increase your tanking abilities. Maybe you're sitting with a few L5s there, whereas the other guy only has L4s (because his gunnery has the L5s). assuming you were able to get the compensation skills to 5 ... you're looking at an extra 25% bonus to passive armour hardeners (like EANM) and an extra 15% to active (like DCU II)...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2011-12-02 02:20:11 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:

Name me a MMO where leveling a single skill to the final level takes months. Some of you guys have an eight year headstart on new players, and unlike the dreaded WOW which keeps making leveling easier for new players, there's simply no way to catch up for us, no matter how motivated we are. That, I can deal with. But seriously, in this game learning a level 5 battleship skill actually takes longer than learning real-life multivariable calculus.



you don't *HAVE* to get L5 Battleships (unless of course you're looking to get into a dread/carrier/super).

Having L4 across the board will put you AT MOST about 15% behind someone with L5 skills across the board in the same fit.

Let's take the Megathron for example, fitted with Neutron Blasters

5% damage per level of Battleships to large hybrids.
5% damage per level of Large Hybrid Turret
3% damage per level of Surgical Strike

so, 13% less with you having 4/4. The ROF bonuses and other things will play into this too, but I'm looking just at volley damage (because seriously, I don't want to really figure out what a 4% difference in ROF does throughout the course of an engagement).

so, that's ~60 days saved right there that you maybe used to increase your tanking abilities. Maybe you're sitting with a few L5s there, whereas the other guy only has L4s (because his gunnery has the L5s). assuming you were able to get the compensation skills to 5 ... you're looking at an extra 25% bonus to passive armour hardeners (like EANM) and an extra 15% to active (like DCU II)...



Way to answer specifically to a generic example. I'm not even planning to train battleships.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#309 - 2011-12-02 05:31:51 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:

I must admit I don't really like the idea of arenas. It seems kind of... WoWy. But on the other hand there's the neglected barely-living carcass of Factional Warfare that would be perfect for getting frankensteined into something that could provide some kind of decent on-demand pvp concept.

Yeah I'll never go in a structured arena, and most of the people I know will also probably never go into a structured arena. But arena fights might be a necessary evil to slowly ease new players (or skittish carebears) into pvp.

But only as long as the arena rewards are only some Faction Warfare LP and whatever loot they can scoop. We don't want these structured arena fights interfering with our unstructured sandbox.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#310 - 2011-12-02 05:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Krios Ahzek wrote:
But seriously, in this game learning a level 5 battleship skill actually takes longer than learning real-life multivariable calculus.


It took you less than a month to learn advanced calculus, but your having trouble with eve?

Something sure doesn't add up here.

Lol

Edit: Fixing quotes. Why do you people nest them so retardedly far?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2011-12-02 06:27:15 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
But seriously, in this game learning a level 5 battleship skill actually takes longer than learning real-life multivariable calculus.


It took you less than a month to learn advanced calculus, but your having trouble with eve?

Something sure doesn't add up here.

Lol

Edit: Fixing quotes. Why do you people nest them so retardedly far?


Actually it takes me one week before the finals. Final destination. d;D

I'm not having trouble with Eve, on the contrary, I'm being held back by artificial limitations.
Kids these days and their entitlement, etc.


Now I'll just stop answering or we're going to derail this thread way past its intended purpose.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Red Templar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#312 - 2011-12-02 10:01:55 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
[quote=Abdiel Kavash][quote=Krios Ahzek] Some of you guys have an eight year headstart on new players, and unlike the dreaded WOW which keeps making leveling easier for new players, there's simply no way to catch up for us, no matter how motivated we are.

Yes some of the players played longer than others. But that doesnt give them much. Only broader choice of ships. And maybe a bit better tank/dps/whatever which in eve can always be mitigated by skill and imagination. 8 year old chars in battleship can be killed by a skilled guy in a frig. its not that uncommon.

And you are wrong that there is no way to catch up. There is. Buy a skilled character. Its officially allowed by CCP and completely safe. Earn some isk, sell your noobie char, buy yourself advanced char. Skill gap problem solved.

[b]For Love. For Peace. For Honor.

For None of the Above.

For Pony![/b]
WarFireV
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2011-12-02 13:51:34 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
E man Industries wrote:

So is there any drive behind the CSM to have quicker PvP in 0.0? Not all 0.0 players are from huge alliances and love the huge alliance ops.

Big fights are great and alliances need to have them, but day to day smaller scale skirmishes need to be taking place. These skirmishes need to be accessible in a 1-2h play slot.
0.0 needs to be fun!

Thanks I hope to shoot you soon.
Edit:

I sure you are aware of the above issue as you are attempting to set up a similar thunderdome of pvp-ness to address this via goonswarm.
Pilots in every area of 0.0 space shoudl have access to good fights.
not asking for cpp to change 0.0 or sov or anything as big fightd have there place but currently good fights are hard to come by.


I'm in a similar mental place; most of my pvp these days is ganking or gatecamping or World of Tanks. I don't like waiting for hours on major fleet ops to fight a fight; I'm lazy. This is a common problem for veterans, who have been playing for ages - this is also why vets end up in cap ships, because you can play a game in another window until it's cyno time, and then you either fight or die or go back to playing in another window. Less 'schlepping'.

It's extremely controversial and the CSM is divided on it, but personally I'd like to see some kind of an arena or instanced PvP setup which would allow professionals with busy lives to log in, blow some dudes up, and log off. The actual mechanics of such a device don't interest me much - it could be a gladiatorial arena with spectators who can place bets, a 'combat simulator', an arranged 4v4 team game, whatever.

The macro-level issue is what concerns me: the fact that, as a PvPer, it's very hard to get a PvP experience within a short time of logging in. Missionrunners and miners can boot up EVE and begin slaving away at their PvE in moments, PvPers not so much.

One of the reasons you see EVE's PvP population in BF3, LoL/HoN and WoT is precisely that they allow us to get PvP fixes on demand. It sure would be nice if we could get an on-demand PvP experience involving spaceships, too.

However, some are hostile to the very idea of arenas or instanced combat or even 'quick PvP'. I haven't focused on this as a 'CSM Issue' because it doesn't much matter if we get on-demand PvP or not while the Sucking Chest Wounds need to be patched. Once the game is not being driven off a cliff hopefully I can step back and push for stuff like this.

I must admit I don't really like the idea of arenas. It seems kind of... WoWy. But on the other hand there's the neglected barely-living carcass of Factional Warfare that would be perfect for getting frankensteined into something that could provide some kind of decent on-demand pvp concept.


I believe a good middle ground to this is to have more tournaments or have some sort of automated tournament. The idea would be to still have the large one every year or something like a championship tournament where the winners to get a new ship. Then have smaller ones where the winners just get something like 1Bill isk or a few faction cruiser blueprints to keep the same people from winning it over and over.

You could follow the same rules or go with a smaller setup something like a 6v6. Maybe even do a bi-monthly or ever 4 month tournament where the winner get 1 BPC from a past alliance tournament, seeing some more Imperial Apcos in game would be cool. I think the whole competitive PvP is very under looked at in Eve when it could be something big if given enough love. I mean just look at something like DOTA2 where they had a 2million dollar tournament.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2011-12-02 14:09:01 UTC
WarFireV wrote:


I believe a good middle ground to this is to have more tournaments or have some sort of automated tournament. The idea would be to still have the large one every year or something like a championship tournament where the winners to get a new ship. Then have smaller ones where the winners just get something like 1Bill isk or a few faction cruiser blueprints to keep the same people from winning it over and over.

You could follow the same rules or go with a smaller setup something like a 6v6. Maybe even do a bi-monthly or ever 4 month tournament where the winner get 1 BPC from a past alliance tournament, seeing some more Imperial Apcos in game would be cool. I think the whole competitive PvP is very under looked at in Eve when it could be something big if given enough love. I mean just look at something like DOTA2 where they had a 2million dollar tournament.



Oh heck, if CCP decided it was worthwhile, they could do much better than "Arena" combat .... they could create new "Player Incursions" or "PvP Missions" and repurpose some of the faction warfare mechanics perhaps ... all kinds of options, and they wouldn't necessarily have to break the current game system that much IMO.

Far from discouraging PVP, I think it would actually encourage it by providing a bridge into PvP for carebears, but I'm not a psychologist or game designer, nor do I have behavioral statistiics at my disposal (like CCP should) to tell whether this would really be the case or not.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#315 - 2011-12-03 01:49:39 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Oh heck, if CCP decided it was worthwhile, they could do much better than "Arena" combat .... they could create new "Player Incursions" or "PvP Missions" and repurpose some of the faction warfare mechanics perhaps ... all kinds of options, and they wouldn't necessarily have to break the current game system that much IMO.

Far from discouraging PVP, I think it would actually encourage it by providing a bridge into PvP for carebears, but I'm not a psychologist or game designer, nor do I have behavioral statistiics at my disposal (like CCP should) to tell whether this would really be the case or not.


How about... allow players to control systems, and allow them to challenge the system's owner to take over the system? There could be a designated structure that the defending team has to protect and the attackers have to destroy in order to take control.

Oh. Wait.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#316 - 2011-12-03 10:30:13 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
Oh heck, if CCP decided it was worthwhile, they could do much better than "Arena" combat .... they could create new "Player Incursions" or "PvP Missions" and repurpose some of the faction warfare mechanics perhaps ... all kinds of options, and they wouldn't necessarily have to break the current game system that much IMO.

Far from discouraging PVP, I think it would actually encourage it by providing a bridge into PvP for carebears, but I'm not a psychologist or game designer, nor do I have behavioral statistiics at my disposal (like CCP should) to tell whether this would really be the case or not.


How about... allow players to control systems, and allow them to challenge the system's owner to take over the system? There could be a designated structure that the defending team has to protect and the attackers have to destroy in order to take control.

Oh. Wait.



plus 2 internets to this one

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#317 - 2011-12-03 11:08:14 UTC
Is the fix for drone regions in the works?

I figured it would be in this past patch, but still nothing.

Having watched eve progress for about 5-6 years now, I am amazed at how slowly things get done.

I remember when drones didn't use their MWD's correctly and all I had trained for was drone ships. It took them like 2 years to fix that.

Drone regions are allowing a bunch of people to mine who never trained for mining completely undermining the entire market and thus the entire character career path.

I understand eve is a PVP game, but I sincerely feel ships shooting each other gets a lot more of a look from CCP than other types of PVP. Every auction, every barter, or market interaction should be considered PVP.

I'm scratching my head while they seem to just be scratching themselves.

.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#318 - 2011-12-03 11:29:54 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Is the fix for drone regions in the works?

I figured it would be in this past patch, but still nothing.

Having watched eve progress for about 5-6 years now, I am amazed at how slowly things get done.

I remember when drones didn't use their MWD's correctly and all I had trained for was drone ships. It took them like 2 years to fix that.

Drone regions are allowing a bunch of people to mine who never trained for mining completely undermining the entire market and thus the entire character career path.

I understand eve is a PVP game, but I sincerely feel ships shooting each other gets a lot more of a look from CCP than other types of PVP. Every auction, every barter, or market interaction should be considered PVP.

I'm scratching my head while they seem to just be scratching themselves.



Given Soundwave's interest in the topic, I think there's a good chance that the drone regions will be revisited in the summer expansion. I wholly agree with you that dronespace should not be the major source of minerals, but I would also be very disappointed to see drones become $GENERIC_BOUNTY_RAT_TYPE_09

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#319 - 2011-12-03 11:38:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
Is the fix for drone regions in the works?

I figured it would be in this past patch, but still nothing.

Having watched eve progress for about 5-6 years now, I am amazed at how slowly things get done.

I remember when drones didn't use their MWD's correctly and all I had trained for was drone ships. It took them like 2 years to fix that.

Drone regions are allowing a bunch of people to mine who never trained for mining completely undermining the entire market and thus the entire character career path.

I understand eve is a PVP game, but I sincerely feel ships shooting each other gets a lot more of a look from CCP than other types of PVP. Every auction, every barter, or market interaction should be considered PVP.

I'm scratching my head while they seem to just be scratching themselves.



Given Soundwave's interest in the topic, I think there's a good chance that the drone regions will be revisited in the summer expansion. I wholly agree with you that dronespace should not be the major source of minerals, but I would also be very disappointed to see drones become $GENERIC_BOUNTY_RAT_TYPE_09



split it to some degree i mean these are "rogue drones" you should get payed something for taking them out and in all honesty they drop a tad to much to make sense... hell even the high sec ones ive done to kill time have given me more isk in minerals than i can earn ratting.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
St Ryan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2011-12-03 15:41:07 UTC
Mr. King of Space,

Can we get a "Never Show This Message Again" option added to the Intergalactic News dialog boxes?

While I'm sure such content strokes the loins of many a role player, there's no reason the rest of us have to see it every damn time we pass through the system. For those of us living nearby, these messages quickly become tiresome.

blessed be thy brutix,
St Ryan