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Recruitment and API keys

Author
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2014-05-11 22:01:09 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I do one of two things: 1) I don't give them my API, or 2) I create a new account and move the alt in question to that account. No other alts means no SPAI according to the whole "we need your API!" thing...


When you give an api in a situation like this your account shows younger than your alt, which raises a red flag and generally a denial in most sane recruitment situations.



Debyl Vuld wrote:
''I need to give away all my information to a great leader so they can protect me because I'm not capable of protecting myself''

-eve GD


I need to see where you get your money, who you trade with and what you trade. I need to see who you converse with in mails, who's on your watch list, is it a supercap fleet thats friendly to me? Why do you have it listed.

You've already stated flatly in this thread that you've sold and handed off information about people so this is exactly why people want your full API because in it is that history that reveals you as the rat you are.

In the modern EVE corps provide a lot of resources to their members (the non crap ones anyway) and it is you that should earn their trust for the investment they make in you and not the other way around.

If thats not to your liking, start your own corp where you don't ask for API keys (you'll have to start your own alliance too since most existing alliances now require corps to be on top of API key logging) and report back in 12 months at how well your little experiment in privacy worked out.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Marsha Mallow
#102 - 2014-05-11 23:03:03 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
I need to see where you get your money, who you trade with and what you trade. I need to see who you converse with in mails, who's on your watch list, is it a supercap fleet thats friendly to me? Why do you have it listed.

To be fair, all of that can be bypassed by anyone with a brain larger than a pea. It's those who don't mask their IP most likely to trip up on oog services, the API is just a segment of intel gathering. That's a helpful list of things panty sniffers might be looking for tho, thanks for sharing.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Debyl Vuld
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2014-05-11 23:21:58 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

You've already stated flatly in this thread that you've sold and handed off information about people so this is exactly why people want your full API because in it is that history that reveals you as the rat you are.


I stuck an alt in Coreli back in the day to watch the lulz unfold on their forums when PL arrived in fountain (that was before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye Grath), did the same with a few low-sec alliances, and entities PL was targeting, either way, hardly spymaster stuff. And having my full API today would not tell you any of this information.

The point is moot anyway, since everyone seems to agree with you, that to join a corp you must give full disclosure.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#104 - 2014-05-11 23:28:44 UTC
Debyl Vuld wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

You've already stated flatly in this thread that you've sold and handed off information about people so this is exactly why people want your full API because in it is that history that reveals you as the rat you are.


I stuck an alt in Coreli back in the day to watch the lulz unfold on their forums when PL arrived in fountain (that was before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye Grath), did the same with a few low-sec alliances, and entities PL was targeting, either way, hardly spymaster stuff. And having my full API today would not tell you any of this information.

The point is moot anyway, since everyone seems to agree with you, that to join a corp you must give full disclosure.

This is where you continue to be wrong.

There are corps out there that won't require you to log an API, nor even hop on TS for a quick interview.

I think what you meant to say was "Joining a half decent corp", in which case, yeah.

But as we've said plenty of times (and you have ignored each and every time) Start your own corp, see how far your ideals get you.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#105 - 2014-05-11 23:32:02 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
While I understand why a full API key is a common request, it does raise the bar on what players have to do in order to even form a basic corp and relies heavily on yet another out of game 3rd party tool one must have in order to just play the game.

Again, I do understand why it is common practice these says to demand the full API, it is also rather sad this is what players must do just to play a game. Flame me if you want, but I am not a fan of more and more hurdles players must jump over before they can begin to enjoy the game with other capsuleers in a corporation. Especially in high sec where any new group who decides to branch out and look beyond just blitzing missions in a NPC is preyed upon by legions of griefers.

I'm also not advocating turning the game into some meaningless theme park, but there has to be another way.


This is a silly strawman argument and it's obvious even to GD posters that you're trying to mimick the reasoning behind the WH API changes to feint a logical argument. They're not equivalent.

No one is making people use an API check. There are plenty of sources of information in the client, along with interactions with other players, that can assist in making a choice to recruit someone or not.

In the majority case someone burning a character to awox in highsec is doing so because they have information on a particular target they want, be this an officer-fit mission ship, or a mark someone is trying to claim a bounty on / get revenge. This is positive content for a gameworld like Eve; it's one of the trailers FFS.
If you want to have a discussion about it, respect yourself enough not to lean on a "cute little newbie in his retriever that costed all his moneyes in the world" to drum up stupid morality arguments, because people aren't burning characters to whack newbies that they could otherwise be using to track down incursion bears in their 5bil pirate battleships.

Newbies also need to learn that joining an organisation lead by people who don't have a clue is a bad thing, and trying to wrap an extra layer of bubble-wrap between them and their bad decisions just makes the learning process more difficult.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#106 - 2014-05-11 23:35:11 UTC
Debyl Vuld wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

You've already stated flatly in this thread that you've sold and handed off information about people so this is exactly why people want your full API because in it is that history that reveals you as the rat you are.


I stuck an alt in Coreli back in the day to watch the lulz unfold on their forums when PL arrived in fountain (that was before you were even a twinkle in your father's eye Grath), did the same with a few low-sec alliances, and entities PL was targeting, either way, hardly spymaster stuff. And having my full API today would not tell you any of this information.

The point is moot anyway, since everyone seems to agree with you, that to join a corp you must give full disclosure.


Your "look at people needing information that wouldn't catch me anyway oh man I am the best" humble-brag posting might seem smart to you, but actually undermines the point you were trying to make in the OP.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2014-05-12 01:05:07 UTC
Adira Nictor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2014-05-12 02:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Adira Nictor
Marlona Sky wrote:


I remember that comic, If you do start a corp can I join? I just want to mine and learn to produce goods with this new and exciting industry stuff CCP has coming out.

Seeing as you don't like api checks and backround checks, getting to know recruits, interviews and the like, I think we will get along famously. I don't like these things either, and think people should take me in on just my word that I am a good noob who just wants to blow you awa.. emm I mean mine and buildings... yeah.

Saying that, people can make an argument that the API doesn't help. If a Awoxer wants in your corp to the point that they roll a new pilot for that reason alone then yeah your not going to catch them before its too late. But in the off chance that the awoxer is well, someone like me, who takes advantage of stupid CEOs to ransome them and their corps for isk, then yeah a simple api check would tell you everything you needed to know to avoid recruiting me.

Thankfully because most of eve doesn't read the forums, and most CEOs or recruiters don't do backround checks (API, Forums, Killboard checks), and because most people get bored or annoyed following me around warning my latest ceo that I'm an awoxer 10 min after I kill the expensive ship, or nuke the mining fleet, I wont have to worry about posting this. I will still have plenty of dumb targets who will never see me coming.

These checks would be extreme in any other game, to the point of crazy. But in eve, they are there and the norm for a reason, they don't work 100% of the time, but they do stop the thousands of people like me who abuse people like you in the name of our next paycheck.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#109 - 2014-05-12 09:54:31 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

Parody.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Marcus Iunius Brutus
Hoborg Labs
#110 - 2014-05-12 10:23:08 UTC
I have few questions about background checks:

Do corps ask for full API on account or on a character?
I have no intentions of revealing my alt corp that funds my main characters.

What about EVE-mail, is it mandatory to include in API check? If I knew that people make it mandatory to show it during recruitment, I'd never use it to communicate with IRL friends.

How long do deleted messages stay in API?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#111 - 2014-05-12 12:43:36 UTC
Marcus Iunius Brutus wrote:
Do corps ask for full API on account or on a character?

Account, so people can't prevent
Quote:
revealing my alt corp that funds my main characters

Which you better believe is important to them.
Quote:
What about EVE-mail, is it mandatory to include in API check?

Tends not to be included when corps ask for a specific mask, but gets asked for by people asking for the defunct "Full API".
Quote:
How long do deleted messages stay in API?

Last time I checked on this, you could get the headers from deleted mails from the cache, but the API call wouldn't return the body-text for any mail marked deleted. It's historically been buggy as hell though, so YMMV.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#112 - 2014-05-12 12:52:47 UTC
FWIW when it comes to highsec corps recruiting, think of asking for a "Full API" as like asking for "papers please". Those people holding up their papers are usually waved straight through. People getting shifty, sweating, and asking "specifically which paper do you need to see at this time?" are usually either rejected or subjected to extra scrutiny.

It's obvious if you're hiding your source of income.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2014-05-12 15:44:51 UTC
Condoms aren't 100% effective at preventing STDs and pregnancies, so I don't get why people are so insistent on wearing them.
Adira Nictor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2014-05-12 20:59:27 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
Condoms aren't 100% effective at preventing STDs and pregnancies, so I don't get why people are so insistent on wearing them.


I made that big long post, I wish I had just said this. you just won the thread.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#115 - 2014-05-12 21:05:42 UTC
So many people with something to hide. Just find a way to hide it better.
Django Askulf
Black Rebel Death Squad
#116 - 2014-05-12 22:03:33 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:


I'll say it again. If you can't trust your potential corpmates to check your API, you are either hiding something, or not to be trusted.



Nothing to hide here, and I can say without a doubt, that anyone who'm I have grown to know since joining Eve, will say I am very trustworthy.

Unlike most of society nowdays, I value my privacy more than anything. Im also not keen to giving my API to anyone who isnt a friend. Its just the principle of it. You wont find me on facebook, twitter, or whatever new nonsense that comes out.

Maybe if corps recruited people they know, and trust, rather than any warm body that will join their F1 blob fest, and help fill the CEO's wallet. There wouldnt be a need for such API nonsense. Im an open book when I know someone.

If the CEO cant trust me, then I cant trust him.
Adira Nictor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2014-05-12 22:18:12 UTC
Django Askulf wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:


I'll say it again. If you can't trust your potential corpmates to check your API, you are either hiding something, or not to be trusted.



Nothing to hide here, and I can say without a doubt, that anyone who'm I have grown to know since joining Eve, will say I am very trustworthy.

Unlike most of society nowdays, I value my privacy more than anything. Im also not keen to giving my API to anyone who isnt a friend. Its just the principle of it. You wont find me on facebook, twitter, or whatever new nonsense that comes out.

Maybe if corps recruited people they know, and trust, rather than any warm body that will join their F1 blob fest, and help fill the CEO's wallet. There wouldnt be a need for such API nonsense. Im an open book when I know someone.

If the CEO cant trust me, then I cant trust him.


This idea of recruiting people you know is fine, until you run out of people you know, and still want to grow as a corp. Saying that, there are ways to get to know people, you can mine with them in highsec, run missions with them in highsec, form a fleet with them in highsec to shoot other people in highsec/lowsec/nullsec roams. But you can only effectively do this for people who for the most part live in highesc.

See the issue here is, the corps you want to be in, corps that have more then mind numbing mining, and mission running 23/7 while ignoring each other, are not in highsec for the most part. So you have to provide information to prove that you are trustworthy. Keep in mind you went looking for the corp, they didn't seek you out. You want to join them way more then they need you.
Django Askulf
Black Rebel Death Squad
#118 - 2014-05-12 22:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Django Askulf
Adira Nictor wrote:


See the issue here is, the corps you want to be in, corps that have more then mind numbing mining, and mission running 23/7 while ignoring each other, are not in highsec for the most part. So you have to provide information to prove that you are trustworthy. Keep in mind you went looking for the corp, they didn't seek you out. You want to join them way more then they need you.


Dunno about missions or mining, never done any of that, in any sec.

Corps do seek players out, while a player wants guys to fly with, corps also want to grow, as you said. If more people stood up about their API, things would be different. Its all in the mentality, nothing is forcing these situations. Personally, I stand by my principles. I dont want anything, which forces me to compromise them.

If I really wanted to get into things, it could be said that if someone wants to work that way, then API's should be shared corp wide. There have been many cases of old corp members and stuff, running off with alliance dreads, and all kinds of other neat things. In a good display of faith, I should have my CEO's API, cause he shouldnt have anything to hide, as it is.

Trust and respect is earned, and it works both ways.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-05-12 23:05:33 UTC
Django Askulf wrote:
Dunno about missions or mining, never done any of that, in any sec.

Corps do seek players out, while a player wants guys to fly with, corps also want to grow, as you said. If more people stood up about their API, things would be different. Its all in the mentality, nothing is forcing these situations. Personally, I stand by my principles. I dont want anything, which forces me to compromise them.

If I really wanted to get into things, it could be said that if someone wants to work that way, then API's should be shared corp wide. There have been many cases of old corp members and stuff, running off with alliance dreads, and all kinds of other neat things. In a good display of faith, I should have my CEO's API, cause he shouldnt have anything to hide, as it is.

Trust and respect is earned, and it works both ways.


Or just stay in your corp with your alt because nobody is going to change the way they operate just to accommodate entitled people like you

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#120 - 2014-05-12 23:06:16 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I do one of two things: 1) I don't give them my API, or 2) I create a new account and move the alt in question to that account. No other alts means no SPAI according to the whole "we need your API!" thing...


When you give an api in a situation like this your account shows younger than your alt, which raises a red flag and generally a denial in most sane recruitment situations.



Debyl Vuld wrote:
''I need to give away all my information to a great leader so they can protect me because I'm not capable of protecting myself''

-eve GD


I need to see where you get your money, who you trade with and what you trade. I need to see who you converse with in mails, who's on your watch list, is it a supercap fleet thats friendly to me? Why do you have it listed.

You've already stated flatly in this thread that you've sold and handed off information about people so this is exactly why people want your full API because in it is that history that reveals you as the rat you are.

In the modern EVE corps provide a lot of resources to their members (the non crap ones anyway) and it is you that should earn their trust for the investment they make in you and not the other way around.

If thats not to your liking, start your own corp where you don't ask for API keys (you'll have to start your own alliance too since most existing alliances now require corps to be on top of API key logging) and report back in 12 months at how well your little experiment in privacy worked out.


I totally get that there is a good reason to do this when you have supercaps and sov to protect, or high value, officer fit missioning and mining ships. But when it is the norm for small corps who live in lowsec with a grand total of half a dozen Caracels in their corp hanger it's pretty bloody ridiculous. There is certainly a time and place for this sort of security but even relatively laid back casual corps are heading that way, even when they have nothing to steal and no high value assets to lose.