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Returning player, my old level 4 mission boats no longer acceptable.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#21 - 2014-05-10 17:24:53 UTC
IIshira wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
I really just need to say this for you to consider.

You are a returning player, and you basically need to start fresh as a mission runner.
It seems to me that you would want to train for the BEST mission approach possible instead of starting with a ship that has limits and drawbacks.
EM specific damage and cap sucking guns are not the 'top line' weapon of choice for missioners.
Amarr have great ships, and I love them. Nightmare, Pally, are 2 great ships all in all, but they require excellent skills to shine, and they still will never be #1 for missions.

Food for thought.



In Amarr space lasers are amazing since you get a lot of EM weak targets to shoot at. I will admit they are not so great in other parts of New Eden. If you want the "Jack of all trades" go Caldari with missiles but it has it drawbacks too.



Yeap IIsh, I figured that, and in fact, I have never missioned there.
I mission with a CNR, sort of Omni fit, but way overtanked. My fit is also NOT the best mission fit, so I get it that a player may want to fly ships and fits for his own pleasure.
I've always advocated players to "Play your own game. Whatever is most fun for you is what's right".

So my above post was more of a 'Keep an open mind' post. Not at all a 'You're doing it wrong' post.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#22 - 2014-05-10 20:01:15 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
You do realise the Navy Domi was never changed and works just like the old Domi you are used to from the past ?


The navy domi doesn't stop rats from agressing drones.
Cayenne Agni
Red Eyed Logi
#23 - 2014-05-11 02:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cayenne Agni
To the OP.

IMO I believe you need to only learn the new NPC aggro mechanics.

I dont want to stop you from learning the laser ships if that's what you want, however:

Try your Domi, with Sentries and be sure to fit remote reps to target the drones (added aggro for you), a TP (added aggro for you), perhaps an EWAR 'damp/ecm/something (more aggro for you) and you wont have nearly as many attacked drones.

I'm not on my main computer or else I'd link some threads that write about all the things you can do to draw more aggro/threat to yourself in the eyes of the AI.

In addition, I'm willing to bet that Drone sentries set to assist to your buddy will provide more usefulness than you in an under-skilled battleship or battlecruiser. In addition, your remote rep, TP's, WEB or whatever forms of additional threat generation can also help him.

Heck, remote sensor boosting your friend is likely a huge help. There are many ways to be more useful to your buddy while at the same time protecting your drones.


I just read another thread and will cross the information over. this is what i mean by creating multiple aggro generation. And he explains it differently than I would so you get two views.

Jenn aSide wrote:

...understand threat generation/aggro system (one in which it's easier to afk in than the previous system because with this current one you don't even have to take into account missions that have various spawns).

DPS is the low man on the threat totem pole. Logistics is top, followed by EWAR (real EWAR, not things like NOS). If you use a combination of the 3 you can keep aggro off your drones most of the time (though the AI does still throw random checks at the situation causing the rare random aggro switch).

Additionally, the AI doesn't see any ship or drone as 'no threat' just very low threat which is why Noctis and such get aggro, but using the 'triple threat' scheme (logi+ewar+dps) I haven't had any aggro on my noctis or salvage drones in a long long time. And I mean Zero.

I launch a can and Rep it with a small armor rep. I target an npc pirate/enemy faction structure that I'm not going to kill (like 'guristas wall' or 'drone bunker') and damp it. I do dps with my guns or missiles. i get to use Heavy Drones while sooo many people who don't actually understand the system are using sentries (if that) and complaining lol. It's not about generating the 'most' threat, the way to game the system is to generate MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS threats from one ship.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2014-05-11 03:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
EDIT: Sry posted in the wrong thread pls ignore
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-05-11 04:10:31 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
IIshira wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
I really just need to say this for you to consider.

You are a returning player, and you basically need to start fresh as a mission runner.
It seems to me that you would want to train for the BEST mission approach possible instead of starting with a ship that has limits and drawbacks.
EM specific damage and cap sucking guns are not the 'top line' weapon of choice for missioners.
Amarr have great ships, and I love them. Nightmare, Pally, are 2 great ships all in all, but they require excellent skills to shine, and they still will never be #1 for missions.

Food for thought.



In Amarr space lasers are amazing since you get a lot of EM weak targets to shoot at. I will admit they are not so great in other parts of New Eden. If you want the "Jack of all trades" go Caldari with missiles but it has it drawbacks too.



Yeap IIsh, I figured that, and in fact, I have never missioned there.
I mission with a CNR, sort of Omni fit, but way overtanked. My fit is also NOT the best mission fit, so I get it that a player may want to fly ships and fits for his own pleasure.
I've always advocated players to "Play your own game. Whatever is most fun for you is what's right".

So my above post was more of a 'Keep an open mind' post. Not at all a 'You're doing it wrong' post.


I'm not against this. I think the CNR and SNI are perfect for when you're half asleep running missions. You can uber tank them and there's no tracking issues with guns when stuff gets too close.

You used to be able to do the same with a Navy Dominix and heavy drones. This was before the aggro changes.

Yeah I'll be honest I can be critical of fits but if you ask for advice don't be hurt when you get it. Don't ask "Do these jeans make me look fat" lol.. The best advice I say is if you don't know start off with the standard loadout. Once you have your fitting down you'll be able to modify it to your preferences.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-05-11 19:01:39 UTC
IIshira wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
IIshira wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
I really just need to say this for you to consider.

You are a returning player, and you basically need to start fresh as a mission runner.
It seems to me that you would want to train for the BEST mission approach possible instead of starting with a ship that has limits and drawbacks.
EM specific damage and cap sucking guns are not the 'top line' weapon of choice for missioners.
Amarr have great ships, and I love them. Nightmare, Pally, are 2 great ships all in all, but they require excellent skills to shine, and they still will never be #1 for missions.

Food for thought.



In Amarr space lasers are amazing since you get a lot of EM weak targets to shoot at. I will admit they are not so great in other parts of New Eden. If you want the "Jack of all trades" go Caldari with missiles but it has it drawbacks too.



Yeap IIsh, I figured that, and in fact, I have never missioned there.
I mission with a CNR, sort of Omni fit, but way overtanked. My fit is also NOT the best mission fit, so I get it that a player may want to fly ships and fits for his own pleasure.
I've always advocated players to "Play your own game. Whatever is most fun for you is what's right".

So my above post was more of a 'Keep an open mind' post. Not at all a 'You're doing it wrong' post.


I'm not against this. I think the CNR and SNI are perfect for when you're half asleep running missions. You can uber tank them and there's no tracking issues with guns when stuff gets too close.

You used to be able to do the same with a Navy Dominix and heavy drones. This was before the aggro changes.

Yeah I'll be honest I can be critical of fits but if you ask for advice don't be hurt when you get it. Don't ask "Do these jeans make me look fat" lol.. The best advice I say is if you don't know start off with the standard loadout. Once you have your fitting down you'll be able to modify it to your preferences.


actually i thin tank my rni and i complete a sansha pirate invasion in less than 15 minutes.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-05-11 20:05:23 UTC
Kesshisan wrote:
[quote=xPredat0rz]

Drone boats are out for me. Again, this is because of my preference, not because they don't do enough damage. Same for missiles. I'm going to use turrets now.


There is a difference between unacceptable and you don't want to use it due to personal preference
Kesshisan
#28 - 2014-05-12 17:36:51 UTC
Cayenne Agni wrote:
IMO I believe you need to only learn the new NPC aggro mechanics.


I've been horribly unimpressed with the Harbinger's performance. I imagine that with enough skills, it'll be nice, but I'm looking for something useful now, or soon, not later. Your post and the quote from Jenn aSide (and other things) have convinced me to give the Dominix another try. This is what I'm going to try:

[Dominix, Rat]
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II
Remote Sensor Dampener I, Targeting Range Dampening Script

Small Remote Armor Repairer I
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP M

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Garde II x5
+misc other drones

I fit medium guns because I can't use large guns yet. When I can, I'm thinking of switching to large artillery, although my powergrid seems to be disagreeing with that setup. Regardless, I'll address that issue later.

Does this seem to be something that will deal with the new aggro system, or is this a fail fit?
Cayenne Agni
Red Eyed Logi
#29 - 2014-05-13 08:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cayenne Agni
I'm glad you've decided to take another look/try with the drones.

I'm sorry but I took some time to get away and prepare for my upcoming national boards so im not home and also very busy. I've mailed Jenn ASide to ask for an assist here as well because to be honest I haven't run missions in a long time and only annoms in null.

Looking at your fit here are my thoughts:

your tank is using way too much cap armor tanking get some nice boosts from passive modules with compensation. Also you may want to look at improving damage either by better dmg or tracking.

I would also look into, if you are able to fit an MJD in the mids and learn that playstyle. Sometimes you need to relearn the missions, knowing to warp in at XX range so you are 105km from the next gate, etc. But you can pull drones and MJD and redeploy it's a nice option to have.

The sensor damp is good, Webs are good as well, you can use remote sensor booster when you are assisting your friend.

Also the highs, think about being willing to lose one of the 5 guns to instead take some additional utility.

Drone module for extra control range is a good and solid option.

I dont have my game on this computer but when i am finally home I'll look for some better Domi mission running fits.

Post Thought: have you used Eveboard? it could be a really good idea to make an API, link your character skills there so we can see what you can equip, what you could equip soon and what is just simply too far of a train for ya.

I'm now tracking your thread and will follow it as i can.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#30 - 2014-05-13 09:32:19 UTC
With current Dominix bonuses it is rather sentry drone sniper mission boat like this:
[Dominix L4 mission runner]
Large Armor Repairer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Sensor Booster II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Drone Scope Chip I
Large Drone Scope Chip I


Hammerhead II
Hobgoblin II
Warrior II
Hornet EC-300
Warden II
Garde II

If you want to have close up fun you need Machariel.

But in your original OP you mentioned Amarr gun boat for L4 missioning without drones. Well, you may look at
[Apocalypse Navy Issue with Tach's]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

You will be limited to only one type of damage, but it seems to me, that you are well aware of it.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#31 - 2014-05-13 12:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Kesshisan wrote:

I've been horribly unimpressed with the Harbinger's performance. I imagine that with enough skills, it'll be nice....


Told ya so! XD

Also as said before BC are bad in missions (cept maybe lvl 2s). Even with max skills they just don't compare to battleships. Battleships are king.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-05-13 13:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
the advice in here is pretty good in general. in particular, i would also advise you to try a sniping dominix.
erg cz wrote:

[Dominix L4 mission runner]
Large Armor Repairer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Sensor Booster II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Drone Scope Chip I
Large Drone Scope Chip I


Hammerhead II
Hobgoblin II
Warrior II
Hornet EC-300
Warden II
Garde II



this is a solid fit (although i'm not sure about the rigs, and it's missing the right scripts for the mid slot modules). it will get you through just about any lvl4 easily, as long as you use the microjumpdrive to stay at range and let your drones do the heavy lifting.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-05-14 01:45:31 UTC
I run a Domi at Lanngisi and a Rattler down Jita way.

The Domi is a T2 easy mode L4 runner, sniping with bouncers out to 100km and then using garde or gecko in close.


[Dominix L4 mission runner]

Large Armor Repairer II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II or Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (swap for high damage missions)
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

100Mn Afterburner II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Tracking Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Remote Shield Booster
Empty Slot at present
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Cayenne Agni
Red Eyed Logi
#34 - 2014-05-14 02:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cayenne Agni
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I run a Domi at Lanngisi and a Rattler down Jita way.

The Domi is a T2 easy mode L4 runner, sniping with bouncers out to 100km and then using garde or gecko in close.


[Dominix L4 mission runner]

Large Armor Repairer II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II or Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane (swap for high damage missions)
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

100Mn Afterburner II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II Tracking Script

Large Remote Armor Repairer
Medium Remote Shield Booster
Empty Slot at present
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I



this and other mentioned are solid fits. I like that this one takes advantage of the reactive hardener and doesnt worry too much about fitting exact best resist modules every mission.

this setup is clearly a longer range sniping setup. I personally dont go with no guns, but my guns are for the frigs-cruisers and i let the sentries deal with the BC/BS. My setup would be closer to erg's fit and not this but i do like the reactive hardner on this one.

there is still room to play with threat management with what's here by swapping a module out as necessary.

Also do you take advantage of of the mobile structures we have access to now?
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-05-14 06:58:17 UTC
The obsession with gunz makes the life harder, on a domi you could snipe from 160km, out of range of cruise towers, with wardens or bouncers, or out from 120km with curators against sansha and drones, so why would you want to fit 4 guns to add 200 dps out to 60km if everything could die before reaching 80 ?

Just saying.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#36 - 2014-05-14 07:19:58 UTC
It happens often that you need to move and shoot. With sentry drones it would mean, that you have to come back for them, large combat drones take forever to fly those 40-80 km there and back again. And 200 DPS often exactly the damage you need to finish some frigate or almost dead battleship, so your drones can already start working on other target.

If I am not mistaken, reactive armor hardener get stacking penalty with damage control in the same way how energized nano membrane get penalty with specific armor hardeners. So I use 2 armor harderner plus damage control in my mission. I often use range tank, where I do not get armor hit at all. So I do use damage control sinse it gives bonuses for shield as well.

But I do not use dominix since it is effective but one trick pony and that is boring... Instead of switching hardeners I switch battleships, pre-fitted Armageddon Navy Issue (EM or Themic missions) and Hyperion (Kinetic missions). Armageddon do not need additional ammo and switch guns range instantly, Hyperion can deal with Angels without problem. My Armageddon way of running missions is very much like a Dominix, snipering from far away. Hyperion often (almost always) goes into armor tanking close up.

So missions do not become repetitive ;)

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-05-14 08:03:56 UTC
erg cz wrote:
It happens often that you need to move and shoot.


When? If you actually have to move with domi, mjd and setries, then you are doing it wrong.
Shivanthar
#38 - 2014-05-14 10:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
chaosgrimm wrote:
@Shivanthar

Ouch man, and if i recall you've had that same hull for years and years.


+1 ^.^

Edit: You know, I like manuavering within enemy line. That ship was built to be fast. I died because I was stopped by bastion.
I've never liked bastion's behavior anyway. Nobody to blame actually, I just made one mistake, out of 5 years... But, cause is sad Pirate
I was enjoying much more than a tank&spank missioner, if you've ever experienced my laughing with my ST alarms ringing in the background during TS sessions with guildies Twisted

Maybe this is a sign that is calling me into pvp from now on. Who knows.
o7 chaos

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-05-14 15:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
erg cz wrote:


If I am not mistaken, reactive armor hardener get stacking penalty with damage control in the same way how energized nano membrane get penalty with specific armor hardeners. So I use 2 armor harderner plus damage control in my mission. I often use range tank, where I do not get armor hit at all. So I do use damage control sinse it gives bonuses for shield as well.



Matter of personal preference I suppose.

The stacking penalty reduces the Damage Control armor bonus from 15% to 13 % so its pretty irrelevant. Stacking has no effect on the RAH or on the Damage Control shield and hull resistances.

Basically two mission hardeners plus a damage control "3 slot tank" gives gives you 62% on each of the two main damage types and 15% on the two non hardened types.

A Damage Control, RAH and EANM (level V skills) "3 slot tank" against two incoming damage types gives 52% on each of the two main damage types and 35% on the other two types.

As expected the mission specific hardeners are 10% better against the chosen damage types but are an effort to swap out and resistance is worse if you get non hardened damage.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-05-14 15:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
erg cz wrote:


If I am not mistaken, reactive armor hardener get stacking penalty with damage control in the same way how energized nano membrane get penalty with specific armor hardeners. So I use 2 armor harderner plus damage control in my mission. I often use range tank, where I do not get armor hit at all. So I do use damage control sinse it gives bonuses for shield as well.



Matter of personal preference I suppose.

The stacking penalty reduces the Damage Control armor bonus from 15% to 13 % so its pretty irrelevant. Stacking has no effect on the RAH or on the Damage Control shield and hull resistances.

Basically two mission hardeners plus a damage control "3 slot tank" gives gives you 62% on each of the two main damage types and 15% on the two non hardened types.

A Damage Control, RAH and EANM (level V skills) "3 slot tank" against two incoming damage types gives 52% on each of the two main damage types and 35% on the other two types.

As expected the mission specific hardeners are 10% better against the chosen damage types but are an effort to swap out and resistance is worse if you get non hardened damage.


Reactive uses cap, you could have +48-50% faction energizeds (not omni), and two resist tank can be avoided while sniping, just max out the resist they are shooting missiles at.

In the end it is always personal preference :)

Keep in mind that resist 53% vs resist 63% is not 10% damage, but 20%, for 2 resist tank you should probably be aiming at atleast 60% on those two resists if not significantly more.
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