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There has been only one MMO I PVP'd in
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Gisela Tschirner
Exploratory Service
#81 - 2014-05-12 14:42:51 UTC
I have been playing EVE for almost a year now. One thing that I have learned is that no matter what, if I engage in ship to ship PvP, I will die. Sometimes I put up a good fight, but mostly I go down hard. The upside of that, though, is discovering how much fun it is to fit some stabs, and wind everyone up who're trying to kill me. Twisted
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-05-12 14:43:11 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Actually nature does show a remarkable amount of fairness in that every animal knows what other animals it needs to avoid.


Sure they do, laddie, sure they do

http://bit.ly/1nF3P8U


Interesting you picked the Dodo.

An animal made extinct because it did not recognize man as being a threat.

Similar to pilots who do not recognize the pilots who would rather fight non combatant targets.
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2014-05-12 14:45:12 UTC
Gisela Tschirner wrote:
I have been playing EVE for almost a year now. One thing that I have learned is that no matter what, if I engage in ship to ship PvP, I will die. Sometimes I put up a good fight, but mostly I go down hard. The upside of that, though, is discovering how much fun it is to fit some stabs, and wind everyone up who're trying to kill me. Twisted


That is good and I fully agree with what you say.

The important thing to remember is you are fighting others who also want to fight. That makes it "Fair" 2 opposing willing sides.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#84 - 2014-05-12 14:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Interesting you picked the Dodo.

An animal made extinct because it did not recognize man as being a threat.

Similar to pilots who do not recognize the pilots who would rather fight non combatant targets.


Good. Get em out.

This is a metaphor for how someone who doesnt want combat should be, in the same vein;

http://bit.ly/1gvjVwH

This creature is to be admired as an example of the strength of evolution

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2014-05-12 14:55:23 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:

Ok a fair fight in this instance is when 2 or more opposing parties AGREE to combat regardless of set ups, ships, locations etc etc, there does not need to be equal sides regards numbers, indeed one side can have a distinct advantage over the other but if ALL opposing sides agree to fight then it is "Fair" as all sides could if they want prepare for it. It gets conveniently ignored when only one side wishes to combat and gives the opposing side no warning or time to prepare.


We will assume I accept this.

If EvE represents players taking the roles of citizens in vast star-empires...

Where does this fit in?

Its not piracy, industrial espionage or sabotage, its not warfare, its not gang-related killings, its not robbery, its not pub brawls, its not crime-fighting or vigilantism

What part of life does this reflect and why would I wish to participate?


That is my point.
MOST people who participate in PVP do it with a certain amount of honour. Just because you fight "fairly" does not mean others do.
You ask a very poignant question at the end, What part of life does this reflect and why would I wish to participate? From what I can gather you don't participate in it, You participate your PvP with valid targets. IE those that can give you a good fight, All of your targets are willing combatants.
Solecist Project
#86 - 2014-05-12 14:57:12 UTC
So now there is fair and "fair".

This is beyond silly.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#87 - 2014-05-12 14:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Satur Arbosa wrote:

That is my point.
MOST people who participate in PVP do it with a certain amount of honour. Just because you fight "fairly" does not mean others do.
You ask a very poignant question at the end, What part of life does this reflect and why would I wish to participate? From what I can gather you don't participate in it, You participate your PvP with valid targets. IE those that can give you a good fight, All of your targets are willing combatants.


My favourite target is a scanner-boat on a relic site not paying attention when I decloak, launch an unguided bomb into his face, recloak and if it kills him, I loot his corpse down to the fillings.

I try to make it as unfair as possible for them, because that guarantees my success and reduces my chances of dying.

I do an awful lot to reduce my chances of dying.

And you will never, ever, ever see me accept a 1 v 1 with anyone.

Ever.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-05-12 15:00:48 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:

That is my point.
MOST people who participate in PVP do it with a certain amount of honour. Just because you fight "fairly" does not mean others do.
You ask a very poignant question at the end, What part of life does this reflect and why would I wish to participate? From what I can gather you don't participate in it, You participate your PvP with valid targets. IE those that can give you a good fight, All of your targets are willing combatants.


My favourite target is a scanner-boat on a relic site not paying attention when I decloak, launch an unguided bomb into his face, recloak and if it kills him, I loot his corpse down to the fillings.

I try to make it as unfair as possible for them, because that guarantees my success and reduces my chances of dying.

I do an awful lot to reduce my chances of dying.

And you will never, ever, ever see my accept a 1 v 1 with anyone.

Ever.
is that done in hi sec?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#89 - 2014-05-12 15:02:52 UTC
Satur Arbosa wrote:
is that done in hi sec?



Nope, you cant launch bombs in high sec

But I didnt know we were only talking about high sec

I thought we were talking about fair fights

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2014-05-12 15:05:16 UTC
Satur Arbosa wrote:
[quote=Ramona McCandless][quote=Satur Arbosa]


And you will never, ever, ever see my accept a 1 v 1 with anyone.





The fact you go into low sec and null is an acceptance that you are willing to fight. This is the same with everyone. Going into said area's make you and everyone else a valid target. I said this earlier and stick by it. I have and always will say the "unfairness" is attacking people in hi-sec who do not want to experience combat.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#91 - 2014-05-12 15:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Satur Arbosa wrote:

The fact you go into low sec and null is an acceptance that you are willing to fight. This is the same with everyone. Going into said area's make you and everyone else a valid target. I said this earlier and stick by it. I have and always will say the "unfairness" is attacking people in hi-sec who do not want to experience combat.


Hisec is more unfair on the attacker than the defender in non-consensual PvP

If I was willing to fight, would I use a cloaked ship and a weapon system that does not require a lock?

Would I bookmark wormholes for easy getaways without gates?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Velicitia
XS Tech
#92 - 2014-05-12 15:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Satur Arbosa wrote:

Velicitia wrote:


Every fight I've been in, you do anything and everything to get an advantage on the other guy.

so prove that within the confines of New Eden, there is a "conceptual fair fight" that exists but is ignored when convenient.



Ok a fair fight in this instance is when 2 or more opposing parties AGREE to combat regardless of set ups, ships, locations etc etc, there does not need to be equal sides regards numbers, indeed one side can have a distinct advantage over the other but if ALL opposing sides agree to fight then it is "Fair" as all sides could if they want prepare for it. It gets conveniently ignored when only one side wishes to combat and gives the opposing side no warning or time to prepare.


Fair (adverb) - without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage.


That's just a pre-arranged fight then, and just because it's arranged doesn't mean it's "fair".

I mean, we could agree to a frigate 1v1 (enforced by us fleeting up first, so no side has the "unfair" advantage of OGB) ... and then I bring out a Jag against your Rifter.

I still followed the letter of the agreement (Frigate 1v1) ... but the fight was never "fair" from the outset, because I chose to give myself an "unfair" advantage (i.e. an assault frigate) over you.

Next round, you specify "t1 frigates only" ... OK, so I grab one, and look at what you lost last time ... oh, you're AC fit ... I'll grab arties and kite you.

I didn't make these choices to "conveniently ignore the concept of a fair fight" -- I made them with the sole purpose of ensuring the odds were stacked in my favor.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-05-12 15:09:51 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:

The fact you go into low sec and null is an acceptance that you are willing to fight. This is the same with everyone. Going into said area's make you and everyone else a valid target. I said this earlier and stick by it. I have and always will say the "unfairness" is attacking people in hi-sec who do not want to experience combat.


Hisec is more unfair on the attacker than the defender in non-consensual PvP

If I was willing to fight, would I use a cloaked ship and a weapon system that does not require a lock?

Would I bookmark wormholes for easy get aways with out gates?


Yep your right.

Miners getting podded, iteron pilots getting podded must be awful for the attacker.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#94 - 2014-05-12 15:11:32 UTC
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Yep your right.

Miners getting podded, iteron pilots getting podded must be awful for the attacker.


Ganker fleet: D6 Catalysts

Defender Fleet: 1 Procurer + CONCORD

Do you see yet?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2014-05-12 15:14:36 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

Animals learn to avoid dangerous animals.
It's not hard-coded into them.
At least I can't spontanously recall any.

Anyway, you are applying your idea of fairness to what is actually "balanced".

In the same sense I could say that the ships in EVE are "fair", but actually they are "balanced".

Hope that makes sense.


Most animals have a limited amount of hard-coding, in terms of their fear level of the unknown. Domestication is the process of selecting those animals which have the least instinctual fear of humans and low natural aggression and breeding them to select for those traits. Of course, it works best when the animal is naturally social & has a natural idea of a "pecking order", herd and pack animals are relatively easy to domesticate, animals which are naturally solo, not so much.

The Russians did some experiments on foxes, they created domestic foxes, as well as xenophobic hyper-aggressive ones. (Not much demand for xenophobic hyper-aggressive foxes, strangely. Big smile)
Velicitia
XS Tech
#96 - 2014-05-12 15:16:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Yep your right.

Miners getting podded, iteron pilots getting podded must be awful for the attacker.


Ganker fleet: D6 Catalysts

Defender Fleet: 1 Skiff + CONCORD

Do you see yet?


FTFY Ramona Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-05-12 15:17:13 UTC
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Yep your right.

Miners getting podded, iteron pilots getting podded must be awful for the attacker.



To use your animal comparison from earlier... A miner or a indy pilot should be a deer. If a deer smells something strange in the air, it's first reaction is to run. Deer don't tend to relax much. Miners & indy pilots who get killed are generally not paying attention.
Satur Arbosa
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2014-05-12 15:19:56 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Yep your right.

Miners getting podded, iteron pilots getting podded must be awful for the attacker.



To use your animal comparison from earlier... A miner or a indy pilot should be a deer. If a deer smells something strange in the air, it's first reaction is to run. Deer don't tend to relax much. Miners & indy pilots who get killed are generally not paying attention.


But why would someone in Hi-sec want to kill a miner anyway?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#99 - 2014-05-12 15:21:41 UTC
Satur Arbosa wrote:
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Satur Arbosa wrote:


Yep your right.

Miners getting podded, iteron pilots getting podded must be awful for the attacker.



To use your animal comparison from earlier... A miner or a indy pilot should be a deer. If a deer smells something strange in the air, it's first reaction is to run. Deer don't tend to relax much. Miners & indy pilots who get killed are generally not paying attention.


But why would someone in Hi-sec want to kill a miner anyway?



Because that other miner is mining the rocks that I've claimed as mine. And yes, I'm a miner at times ...


... and **** you CCP from not allowing me to prove my mining skills anymore Cry

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#100 - 2014-05-12 15:26:48 UTC
Thank you for your posts, Cassandra. (:

I don't think that arguments lead anywhere. It rather seems he just hijacks this thread
and wants to prove everybody that he is right, instead of learning anything.

How many pages does this offtopic pointlessness go already?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia