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BEAR102: Advanced Capital Escalations for the Discerning Wormhole Bear

Author
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#1 - 2014-05-11 08:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
This guide assumes that you have a basic idea of how escalations work. I am not going to hold your hand through a standard escalation fleet and how it all works. If you don't have this basic level of knowledge, I recommend Jack Miton's guide, which you can find through a google search. It is somewhat outdated and only shows how to do this with an armour fleet, but is still a good resource and can easily be adapted to a shield fleet.

This guide is basically just ways to speed up your site clearing. The absolute best I have managed is 7 minutes, site to site. This includes one seige cycle and then warp time between sites. This was done with 2 people boxing 7 accounts and does not include salvage time (because you can salvage site 1 while you're shooting site 2). This was done with 3 dreadnaughts, so my comments will be aimed at fleets of about this size. Some people simply refuse to believe that 7 minute sites with only 3 dreads is possible. You can either take my word that it is, try it yourself and confirm that it is possible, or just pretend that I said 12 minutes insead of 7. I honestly don't care if you believe me, and I won't be making videos to prove it.

Regardless of your belief or skepticism, these tips are still good and will speed up your sites.

Setup. These are things you do before you get into the site.

1. Armour fleets are better for this.
They just are. You can optimise a shield fleet in some of these ways, but at the end of the day, you need 2 shield Lokis for every 1 armour Loki and shield fleets simply do not have the cap life/stability to do most of these. Fly armour, or accept that you're going to be slower and/or need more pilots for the same effect.

2. Archons or bust.
Thanatos and Nidhoggurs simply don't have the required tank and fittings available. If you try to use these methods with Thany/Nids, they will die and then your fleet will die. Chimeras are acceptable if you insist on running a shield fleet, but then again, see point number 1. You can use Thanny/Nid for escalations but you need to take things much slower because they are squishier.

3. Moros or bust.
If you're going to use Revelations, it needs to be first dread to leverage their higher tank and cap levels as well as their extra low slot to make up for the loss in damage. If it isn't first dread it needs to be a Moros. If it is first dread, it can still be a Moros.

4. Implants and drugs.
Use them. Gunnery Implants are a must, Slaves are nice, cap implants are nice. For drugs, use the Strong stuff. Mindflood and Drop for Dreads and Mindflood for carriers.


5. Refit all the things! (especially Dreads) <- This is underlined for a reason.
All your capital ships should have refits available for more cap, more tank and more damage, you should also have a full set of Bulkheads. If you aren't being shot, you don't need tank. If you aren't being neuted, you don't need cap mods. Dreads entering site should have a repper, a(n optional) damage control and then a full damage fit. If you're first carrier, consider swapping some cap mods for Drone Damage Amplifiers so you don't end up in the annoying situation of having 3 frigates and 2 cruisers left alive while everything else is dead. Just make sure to watch your cap. If the carrier dies, the fleet dies (or you have to bring the second carrier in early, which can be somewhat stressful).

6. Dreadnaught rigs should be 1x Burst Aerator II and 1x Metastasis Adjuster I.
Yes, leave one rig empty. No, don't fit Cap rigs. The thing that makes your site times faster is damage. If you aren't being shot, any slots used for tank modules are wasted. If you aren't low on cap, slots spent on cap mods are wasted. Damage is king, and the faster things die the less damage you have to tank and the faster those neuts go away. The only thing you will be doing for the entire site is shooting. You wont be tanking the whole time and you wont be being neuted the whole time. Refit your lows for those situations where you need to tank or are being neuted. Because of the way stacking penalties work, the rigs will always give the full effect because they provide the largest boosts to Rate of Fire and Tracking. A Hybrid Burst Aerator II on a Moros with 4x Fed Navy Mag Stabs will take you from 15k DPS up to 16k. That's a big difference. Remove Tracking Enhancers from your lows to fit cap mods first. TEs are the weakest modules you have fit, lose em first.

7. Shiny is fine, to a point.
Meta guns should be the first thing you invest in. Followed by faction damage mods, then faction tracking comps. But for the love of god, don't put Officer mods on. Yes, adding 4x Cormack's Magstabs will give you an extra 1000 DPS, but it will also cost you over 24 bil. Stick with faction, you're here to make ISK, not loot pinatas.

8. NO Sensor Boosters.
Mids are for Tracking Computers. You can have a Sensor Booster fit when you get into the site, but once you have locked your first target, take it off. Tracking Computers are better than Tracking Enhancers due to the way stacking works and you want as many of them as you can shoe-horn on. If you have enough Dreads in site that you have to use Sensor Boosters to keep up, you should be thinking about a second fleet, and not Sensor Boosters.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2014-05-11 08:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
In Site things.

Now for the juicey part. How to actually do this so to save some time over the standard method. The goal here is to get your site times down to one siege cycle (5 minutes). With no wasted time, 3 Dreads do enough raw damage to kill 28 Sleeper battleships in just over 2.5 minutes. You wont ever do it that fast, because you will lose time to warping, lose damage to tracking etc, but you can do it in under 5 minutes no problem. If you cant, add one dread and you're fine.

a. The Warp to Zero method.
This requires some setup, you use a Zephyr to setup a warp in where the sleepers will spawn. You then warp to there and not to the site beacon. You land at zero on a pile of Sleepers and can get good hits on them while they're burning away. This is an effective method for killing sleepers, but you don't save any time and can infact spend more time setting it up. I do not recommend it, at close ranges, even the smallest amount of transversal will result in a complete miss. It is both faster to setup and faster to blap things by using one of the following methods instead.

b. The fast setup method.
Warp in first carrier, first dread and the loki together. Get everything setup and as the Sleepers get into web range (~50kms) you warp all remaining dreads in. When you get down to 8 Sleepers left, you warp in the second carrier. This method is easier on the tank for your second/third dreads (they will only rarely be targetted) and also staggers the damage from the sleeper waves. If you're running a Revelation for first dread, you can apply good damage from the second you lock the target. If you're using a Moros you may have to wait a little for them to get into range.

c. The VERY fast method.
Warp in everything except the last carrier all at once. This is risky. If your tank isn't up to snuff on the Loki it can be alpha'd off the field. You also have to be Johny on the Spot with refits. If you don't refit tank fast enough, the sleepers have enough damage on the field to kill your capitals.

d. The Insanity method. This is not recommended except for bragging rights.
Warp in everything all at once. This does give the sleepers more damage and neuts on field again, but it also allows you to spider-tank your carriers. With decent skills, 2 spider-tanking Archons can tank all 4 waves forever. Also, each wave of Sleepers will generally have their own target and it is not uncommon to see split damage from the sleepers. It's also not uncommon to see every ship on the field shooting one target. Any damage aimed at the carriers or the Loki can be safely laughed at. You will have issues with Dreads tanking this level of damage though. Bring a max tank refit, and swap to it as soon as you see damage notifications. This method is not recommended unless you live in a Wolf-Rayet, everyone has Vs and full implants as well as Slave sets and drugs. If you can already run the site in under 5 minutes with one of the other methods, then doing the site this way is more dangerous for no gain. Bragging rights only people.

We tried it once, by accident after swapping our normal first carrier pilot and then deciding that we wanted to swap back and ending up with everything warping at once. If you ever hear "oh ****" on comms, be ready for this. Your correct response is not to try to pull out of the site, you wont be able to. Instead you throw everything you have at the site and pray that your dread pilots bought refits.

1. Pre-web your secondary
2 webs and 2 paints on the primary target, 1 web on your secondary. The first web has the largest effect anyway, and having the target already going half speed when you swap the dreads onto it greatly increases the damage of the first few shots. If you run 2 Lokis, then you should drop a Loki and bring another Dread. Trying to coordinate 2 lokis is a pain the in arse and doesn't provide a noticable benefit anyway.

2. Kill frigs/cruisers with the carrier's drones
We would generally finish Core Garrisons with 2 cruisers left alive after all the battleships were dead. Webbing and painting these allows the dreads to one-shot them. Prioritise killing frigates.

3. Stagger targetting by 10 seconds for Orthruses.
Start locking one, wait 10 seconds, start locking another, wait 10 seconds etc. This way you can have all 6 (in a Stronghold) being locked and pop them in one or two cycles. You never have more than 2 locked at any time and so you keep locking the others. This allows you to clear them in 1 minute 20 seconds instead of taking much longer to lock individually. Revelations are good for popping these as it is hard to get a Moros to apply any kind of meaningful damage at 110kms.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#3 - 2014-05-11 08:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
4. Agro control! <- This one is for you Keith!
*disclaimer* this is based on my own personal experience over about 2 years of capital escalations. As far as I know, none of this has been confirmed by any official sources, but it does work and is reproducable. You don't have to believe me, but 2 years escalating, most of that three waves at once and we never lost a single capital ship. *end disclaimer*
Sleepers hate certain things. Drones, EWAR, damage being done to them, remote repairs/cap transfers and sig radii. Based on knowledge of these things, it is possible to mess with their targetting.
a. If you're in a Dread and your tank is breaking, turn your guns off. Less damage means they hate you less and are more likely to switch targets. If you're one of those crazy shield tankers and have a TP fitted, turn that off too. It saves you capacitor and allows you to use your rep for longer under neuts as well.
b. If you're in a Carrier and your tank is breaking, stop remote repping/capping that Loki. Use Triage if you have to.
c. Use drones as chaf. Frigate sized sleepers hate Hobgoblins, cruiser size hate Hammerheads, the battleships hate Ogres. Throw them out to absorb some shots.
d. Bring a brick tanked Scorpion into the site with a full rack of jammers and just jam things for the whole site. You almost don't have to tank anything else if you do this. Reduces damage output because things are jammed and also they almost never shoot anything else. Just make sure your Scorpion doesn't explode.

Things you shouldn't do
1. Logi dreads.
This is a waste of a Dreadnaught. Dread+Carrier+loki is going to be much more effective than Dread+LogiDread+Loki and will result in having less sleepers on the field. If you have enough dreads that you are thinking of doing this so you can warp them all in, skip this step and just warp them all in with the carrier anyway. 3 waves is perfectly safe if you aren't stopping to lick all the windows on the way in.
2. Logi Rorquals.
First, you're shield tanking. Stop that. Second this is an extra pilot tied up doing logi things that simply isn't needed. Yes, you get extra capital reps out of it without triggering more sleepers, but it really isn't needed. It will just slow you down. Take this pilot and put him into a second (or third) Loki and just use a Chimera instead.
3. Bring anything that isn't a capital ship or a Loki into the site
When I was first doing escalations, we would start each site with 6-8 Tengus and a Rorqual. Kill all of the frigs/cruisers/Orthruses and THEN we'd bring in a Chimera, kill those sleepers with the Tengus and start bringing Dreads in one at a time. It was quite safe, we never had more than 8 Sleepers on field at a time, we had a Rorqual and we had 6-8 RR Tengus as well. We still managed to lose ships. Sleepers hit hard and they change targets. Don't bring unnecessary squishy ships into the site (looking at you Huginns/Rapiers).

Let the criticism and nay saying begin!
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
#4 - 2014-05-11 08:10:31 UTC
Going to be nerfed come the cap rebalance.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#5 - 2014-05-11 09:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
Don't need to kill the orthrus or any ship that doesn't point. Also, it's really easy to swap aggro between dreads by having one dread use a TP or a jammer.

Adoris Nolen wrote:
Going to be nerfed come the cap rebalance.

Boohoo'ing because you don't have the friends or the money to do cap escalations?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#6 - 2014-05-11 09:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Don't need to kill the orthrus or any ship that doesn't point. Also, it's really easy to swap aggro between dreads by having one dread use a TP or a jammer.


True. I don't know why we always killed them. They never change targets and their damage is quite low. Even a Noctis can tank them no problems.

Mids on Dreads are for tracking comps, not TPs!
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#7 - 2014-05-11 10:17:54 UTC
Paikis wrote:

Mids on Dreads are for tracking comps, not TPs!


Well what I was trying to say is that you can refit your dreads with ewar in the mids to manage aggro, it works relatively quickly for swapping aggro off a dread which is taking too much damage.

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-05-11 10:29:54 UTC
Way ahead of you, my Phoenix is already armour tanked.
Nice write up. Sadly my corp is destined to run sites slowly forever since it's full of shield nag pilots :(

It should be noted that if you're armour tanking your dreads, you have MUCH less chance of surviving if you get dropped by hostile dreads.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#9 - 2014-05-11 11:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Flying a Nag I wonder what the Rev is supposed to do.

Also, I personally are having issues locking fast enough with only two sripted sebos. Most of the time 4-5 NPCs are being targeted while the first one is just starting to be shot.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2014-05-11 11:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flying a Nag I wonder what the Rev is supposed to do.

You use it to shoot things. If you shoot things for long enough, then they explode and you can loot their wrecks.

Lloyd Roses wrote:
Also, I personally are having issues locking fast enough with only two sripted sebos. Most of the time 4-5 NPCs are being targeted while the first one is just starting to be shot.

You have too many Dreadnaughts in site, or you have bad targetting skills :)

Jack Miton wrote:
It should be noted that if you're armour tanking your dreads, you have MUCH less chance of surviving if you get dropped by hostile dreads.

This is very true. Shields for PvP, armour for PvE.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2014-05-11 12:02:15 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flying a Nag I wonder what the Rev is supposed to do.

You use it to shoot things. If you shoot things for long enough, then they explode and you can loot their wrecks.


We actually told people with Revs *No, you had months already to train for a dread, why do you still fly a rev?*, which is the major issue. Moros and Nags apply roughly the same damage to a Guardian @50k, the Rev though just blows.
Borsek
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-05-11 12:04:35 UTC
Altogether a very neat guide, confirming this is the proper way to do escalations +1
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#13 - 2014-05-11 12:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Lloyd Roses wrote:
We actually told people with Revs *No, you had months already to train for a dread, why do you still fly a rev?*, which is the major issue. Moros and Nags apply roughly the same damage to a Guardian @50k, the Rev though just blows.


Well, if you're going to be total elitists, you should be telling your Naglfar pilots to swap as well. The Moros is hideously out of balance and tops the applied damage against sleepers by a decent amount (something like 30% at most ranges that matter for this).

I wonder, has anyone else used the other dreads for this? How many of you can fly more than one dread? Are you all just looking at things like that graph and deciding that the Revelation is useless?

In this situation the Revelation is suggested as an option for first dread because of it's tank and capacitor. Having flown Moros as well as Revelation, I prefer the Revelation for first dreadnaught. It tanks harder and has a longer cap life under neuts. Second and onwards dreads can be pure damage fit Moroses, and wreck things while only rarely being targetted themselves, and never by three full waves like the Revelation can. First dread is going to take a pounding and I like to know that my Dread can survive more than the sleepers breaking wind in its general direction.

Probably the Moros can do almost as well, but the Revelation feels tougher when you fly it. Also, if you're only bringing one wave at a time, then yeah Moros or bust (you'll notice that point 3 in the OP was this). The Revelation is there if you need something to sit in the site and get shot at and not explode.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-05-11 13:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Flying a Nag I wonder what the Rev is supposed to do.

You use it to shoot things. If you shoot things for long enough, then they explode and you can loot their wrecks.

We actually told people with Revs *No, you had months already to train for a dread, why do you still fly a rev?*, which is the major issue. Moros and Nags apply roughly the same damage to a Guardian @50k, the Rev though just blows.

this is rubbish.
moros is the best damage, yes, but the rev comes in second and it's got MUCH better cap life.
nag does similar damage to the rev, cap life is similar to moros.

here's a DPS comparison with short range ammo under 2 webs and 2 TPs, rev is light blue:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QvEz2otofGw/Ui6PBDowpUI/AAAAAAAAAA4/Zr34_6IbW1k/s1600/Dread+DPS+Comparison.jpg

EDIT: look like tracking has changed since i made that graph, rev is now a bit worse than the nag.

PS: obviously talking PVE only here, for PVP the rev sucks giant donkey balls.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#15 - 2014-05-11 13:25:07 UTC
I've never tried a nid but thanny aslong as you fit it half sensibly and have fully bonused armor links is fine tank wise for first carrier the bigger consideration is capacitor (and energy RR range) - if your the main focus for neuts you need to be 100% on the ball with cap management.

Can also manipulate sleeper targets via sig reduction even with capitals as I found out by accident when I had a char in a carrier with halos in lol.
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-05-11 13:34:27 UTC
Why would you use a Rev when you could fly something is is decent at both PvP and PvE?

For one, that saves you having to have two different dreads trained, slashing both time and isk invested. Two, if you get jumped in a site with a Rev, you're going to have a bad time.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2014-05-11 14:11:46 UTC
Ahost Gceo wrote:
Why would you use a Rev when you could fly something is is decent at both PvP and PvE?


Scroll up, I'm not explaining it a third (fourth?) time. I swear its like people forget how to read when they see the word Revelation without an imediate comment on how much it sucks.

Ahost Gceo wrote:
For one, that saves you having to have two different dreads trained, slashing both time and isk invested. Two, if you get jumped in a site with a Rev, you're going to have a bad time.


One, I can fly all the dreads. I have Vs for the Revelation though, as I found it much more useful for wormhole jewing.
Two, if you get jumped in a site it's because the attackers think they can kill you. Regardless of what you have on field, you're going to have a bad day unless your attackers are very stupid.
Ion Udan
Pulsar.
#18 - 2014-05-12 03:06:35 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Way ahead of you, my Phoenix is already armour tanked.
Nice write up. Sadly my corp is destined to run sites slowly forever since it's full of shield nag pilots :(

It should be noted that if you're armour tanking your dreads, you have MUCH less chance of surviving if you get dropped by hostile dreads.


I can confirm this, on comms with Rolled Out last night running sites.
* Hmm site not pre warped, I'm 50 off the sleepers
* Who left this mobile depot here last night? My carrier cant refit to put its Capital Cap transfer on. Ill slow boat away at 10m/s
* **** I'm out of range of the other mobile dept, but i didnt bring Capital Cap transfer mod someone bring me one
* Ill bring it to you in a Zephyr, it wont get targetted, should fit in the hold right?
* Guys, we have a new sig on scan. Scan the sig, its a WH
* Its ok guys, i'll put a large cap transfer on instead
* Whats that? All the dreads? "NO!!!!"
* So who likes AFL?
* Lots of gifs linked

:) I hope its the same again tonight, i thoroughly enjoyed it

So, glorious QEX brother steals potatoes from hisec.

Winthorp
#19 - 2014-05-12 03:09:21 UTC
Ion Udan wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Way ahead of you, my Phoenix is already armour tanked.
Nice write up. Sadly my corp is destined to run sites slowly forever since it's full of shield nag pilots :(

It should be noted that if you're armour tanking your dreads, you have MUCH less chance of surviving if you get dropped by hostile dreads.


I can confirm this, on comms with Rolled Out last night running sites.
* Hmm site not pre warped, I'm 50 off the sleepers
* Who left this mobile depot here last night? My carrier cant refit to put its Capital Cap transfer on. Ill slow boat away at 10m/s
* **** I'm out of range of the other mobile dept, but i didnt bring Capital Cap transfer mod someone bring me one
* Ill bring it to you in a Zephyr, it wont get targetted, should fit in the hold right?
* Guys, we have a new sig on scan. Scan the sig, its a WH
* Its ok guys, i'll put a large cap transfer on instead
* Whats that? All the dreads? "NO!!!!"
* So who likes AFL?
* Lots of gifs linked

:) I hope its the same again tonight, i thoroughly enjoyed it


Confirming we are this great at PVE.
Keith Planck
Hi-Sec Huggers
#20 - 2014-05-12 03:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
you lost me at dps rigs and strong boosters

other then that no real new information, thanks for the write up though

p.s. the point is to survive long enough to coast out of siege and get reps, surviving long enough for your corp to drop half a dozen more dreads on the attacker's 2 or 3
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