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Crime & Punishment

 
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Ransom escrow service
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-05-07 21:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Are there any people that offer ransom escrow services for smaller (less than 1 bill) transactions? I'm a firm believer in honoring bounties even if many of my friends are not, and I have been looking for a system to lend legitimacy to the process. If there isn't too much competition in this business I may look into starting my own.

Also, is there any delay on transactions being displayed in the wallet api?

Note: I realize there are a large number of players that would provide these services if asked, but reputation is important for it. This is not a scam endeavor on my part though I won't blame anyone for believing that it is.

...


*waits to get trolled*

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Kaea Astridsson
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#2 - 2014-05-07 22:04:37 UTC
Aren't situations where you ransom a bit too hectic to convince target that - Hey look this dude is legit, he'll take your iskies and hand em to me if I let you go.

Best of luck getting it up and running, were I to get in a situation I can ransom someone I'll try remember.

Get on Comms, or die typing.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-07 22:06:48 UTC
Kaea Astridsson wrote:
Aren't situations where you ransom a bit too hectic to convince target that - Hey look this dude is legit, he'll take your iskies and hand em to me if I let you go.

Best of luck getting it up and running, were I to get in a situation I can ransom someone I'll try remember.

If I do set it up I'll make a character specifically to advertise it and have a full character api publicly available. You are right that the speed at which ransom situations have to progress may put a damper on it though.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Cypher Reese
Carebear Corpse Holdings
#4 - 2014-05-09 14:09:15 UTC
It may add an incentive to the target to pay. Paying the escrow or paying the pirate isn't going to change whether the ransom is honored. At least paying the escrow adds a chance that the pirate gets screwed out of the isk as well. Nothing is really changing for the target here.

The pirate doesn't need to convince the target the escrow guy is legit either. He is in the position of power so he could just as easily require the target to pay him. It's the pirate that needs to trust in the escrow.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-05-09 16:31:55 UTC
Cypher Reese wrote:
It may add an incentive to the target to pay. Paying the escrow or paying the pirate isn't going to change whether the ransom is honored. At least paying the escrow adds a chance that the pirate gets screwed out of the isk as well. Nothing is really changing for the target here.

The pirate doesn't need to convince the target the escrow guy is legit either. He is in the position of power so he could just as easily require the target to pay him. It's the pirate that needs to trust in the escrow.

Basically this. It doesn't add any risk for the target, and initially I would expect any business to come from pirates using it to try to convince marks that they mean to honor the ransom. If successful, some targets might begin requesting it, but I assume there aren't too many repeat ransom customers.

The biggest difficulty will be determining at what point the ransom is considered honored. I will probably have to have the parties establish a certain number of jumps as a buffer, and in the case of awoxes determine if the attacker will be required to drop corp. The problem will be establishing a system where the contract is difficult to game if the attacker has a larger fleet on standby, waits till I send the money and then ganks the target.

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#6 - 2014-05-09 16:53:45 UTC
Speaking as someone who also honors ransoms, I would be interested in such a service.

I do not know of one however, besides "trust me".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
#7 - 2014-05-09 19:45:35 UTC
I don't see why not.

How about the 'victims' pre-deposit into the escrow service.

So, the 'victim' gets tackled and the 'pirate' opens up a conversation demanding ransom. The victim pastes the escrow site link into chat.

Pirate clicks on said link and throws in a value. Site checks to make sure the victim has already dumped in enough isk to cover it, and presents the victim on their page with a 'Hey! Got a ransom demand of xxx' And they either accept it, or counter offer. If they accept it, the pirate gets the notification that they have accepted it. And lets the victim go. If the victim counter offers, the pirate gets the counter offer and 'accept' 'reject' or 'counter offer' Pirates may only lower their demands from the initial ask in the counter offer. Victims may only up their asks in counter offers. Each time back and forth they get 'accept' 'reject' 'counter offer' If either side rejects out of hand, the pirate may proceed.

Assuming they both click accept. The escrow service in 60 minutes (after verifying no killmail shows up via api) releases the isk (at some point, the pirate will have to trust the escrow service will do it when a deputy gets online)

If a killmail shows up, (dishonored ransom) the escrow service does not disburse the funds.

As long as the pages are pretty responsive, this could be completed in under 1 minute.

The escrow service charges 10% at deposit time, and the isk may be withdrawn at any time (minus the 10% of course) for the service to the 'victim' side of things. As they are the primary benefactors of a 'safe' way to ransom. Site also keeps track of the 'reputation' of the ransoming parties. So that pirates may get 'better' standings.

Sound reasonable?

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-05-09 20:14:15 UTC
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
I don't see why not.

How about the 'victims' pre-deposit into the escrow service.

So, the 'victim' gets tackled and the 'pirate' opens up a conversation demanding ransom. The victim pastes the escrow site link into chat.

Pirate clicks on said link and throws in a value. Site checks to make sure the victim has already dumped in enough isk to cover it, and presents the victim on their page with a 'Hey! Got a ransom demand of xxx' And they either accept it, or counter offer. If they accept it, the pirate gets the notification that they have accepted it. And lets the victim go. If the victim counter offers, the pirate gets the counter offer and 'accept' 'reject' or 'counter offer' Pirates may only lower their demands from the initial ask in the counter offer. Victims may only up their asks in counter offers. Each time back and forth they get 'accept' 'reject' 'counter offer' If either side rejects out of hand, the pirate may proceed.

Assuming they both click accept. The escrow service in 60 minutes (after verifying no killmail shows up via api) releases the isk (at some point, the pirate will have to trust the escrow service will do it when a deputy gets online)

If a killmail shows up, (dishonored ransom) the escrow service does not disburse the funds.

As long as the pages are pretty responsive, this could be completed in under 1 minute.

The escrow service charges 10% at deposit time, and the isk may be withdrawn at any time (minus the 10% of course) for the service to the 'victim' side of things. As they are the primary benefactors of a 'safe' way to ransom. Site also keeps track of the 'reputation' of the ransoming parties. So that pirates may get 'better' standings.

Sound reasonable?


Not bad, the only issue is if the victim gets ganked by a 3rd party before time time has elapsed and the pirate shows on the kill mail from the previous tackle and damage being applied. Any ideas on how to handle this?

Also, while what you described sounds like an ideal form of this, I'm hesitant to handle anything involving the negotiation while starting. I will not have a website set up, probably just a forum thread advertising. I will need evemail confirmation from both parties on the deal, and use a character with a publicly available api to process the transaction. As for reputation of pilots, I will have to keep lists of abuses of the service and blacklist troublemakers that attempt to circumvent the ransom policies. I will probably post a list of these players publicly for victims to reference. If I do create a website it will incorporate a search feature for this purpose.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
voetius
Grundrisse
#9 - 2014-05-09 21:27:56 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
I don't see why not.

How about the 'victims' pre-deposit into the escrow service.

So, the 'victim' gets tackled and the 'pirate' opens up a conversation demanding ransom. The victim pastes the escrow site link into chat.

Pirate clicks on said link and throws in a value. Site checks to make sure the victim has already dumped in enough isk to cover it, and presents the victim on their page with a 'Hey! Got a ransom demand of xxx' And they either accept it, or counter offer. If they accept it, the pirate gets the notification that they have accepted it. And lets the victim go. If the victim counter offers, the pirate gets the counter offer and 'accept' 'reject' or 'counter offer' Pirates may only lower their demands from the initial ask in the counter offer. Victims may only up their asks in counter offers. Each time back and forth they get 'accept' 'reject' 'counter offer' If either side rejects out of hand, the pirate may proceed.

Assuming they both click accept. The escrow service in 60 minutes (after verifying no killmail shows up via api) releases the isk (at some point, the pirate will have to trust the escrow service will do it when a deputy gets online)

If a killmail shows up, (dishonored ransom) the escrow service does not disburse the funds.

As long as the pages are pretty responsive, this could be completed in under 1 minute.

The escrow service charges 10% at deposit time, and the isk may be withdrawn at any time (minus the 10% of course) for the service to the 'victim' side of things. As they are the primary benefactors of a 'safe' way to ransom. Site also keeps track of the 'reputation' of the ransoming parties. So that pirates may get 'better' standings.

Sound reasonable?


Not bad, the only issue is if the victim gets ganked by a 3rd party before time time has elapsed and the pirate shows on the kill mail from the previous tackle and damage being applied. Any ideas on how to handle this?

Also, while what you described sounds like an ideal form of this, I'm hesitant to handle anything involving the negotiation while starting. I will not have a website set up, probably just a forum thread advertising. I will need evemail confirmation from both parties on the deal, and use a character with a publicly available api to process the transaction. As for reputation of pilots, I will have to keep lists of abuses of the service and blacklist troublemakers that attempt to circumvent the ransom policies. I will probably post a list of these players publicly for victims to reference. If I do create a website it will incorporate a search feature for this purpose.


It seems like you have just moved the problem of trust from the player to the website. E.g. you may have seen those isk doublers that offer "proof" by sending you to a website that is linked to their API that dicks around with the data sent.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-05-10 00:00:43 UTC
Quote:
It seems like you have just moved the problem of trust from the player to the website. E.g. you may have seen those isk doublers that offer "proof" by sending you to a website that is linked to their API that dicks around with the data sent.


Actually this can function without a site entirely and the point is to offer a third party in the ransom transaction. Incentive for the victim is that they may trust such a service more than the pirate ransoming them who has a known conflict of interest in letting them go. Sure, I could be working with the pirate, but that's at least less likely than the pirate taking the money and still blowing the victim up.

The advantage for the pirate is that any increased trust on the victim's part means a high chance that the ransom is paid. A ransom is usually far more lucrative than letting the RNG god's distribute loot, so this could mean an increase in profitability when dealing with a rational victim that is looking to minimize their loss.

Initially I would not charge for this service. With no prior reputation in handling money (other than throwing it into scammer's bounties), I need al the business I can get to build a reputation. If it takes off, I may request payment in the range of 1-10% of the transaction total depending on transaction size.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#11 - 2014-05-10 03:29:07 UTC
Aside from Chribba, about the only other folks I think anybody would trust to run this service honestly would be either Red Frog or E-Uni.

I think if Red Frog set up a 'Ransom' division they could make some great bank off it.

Call it 'Ransom Frog', say.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
lanyaie
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#12 - 2014-05-10 12:49:40 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Aside from Chribba, about the only other folks I think anybody would trust to run this service honestly would be either Red Frog or E-Uni.



Guess what? you're wrong.

Spaceprincess

People who put passwords on char bazaar Eveboards are the worst.
Damon Messer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-05-10 13:03:48 UTC
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
I don't see why not.

How about the 'victims' pre-deposit into the escrow service.

So, the 'victim' gets tackled and the 'pirate' opens up a conversation demanding ransom. The victim pastes the escrow site link into chat.

Pirate clicks on said link and throws in a value. Site checks to make sure the victim has already dumped in enough isk to cover it, and presents the victim on their page with a 'Hey! Got a ransom demand of xxx' And they either accept it, or counter offer. If they accept it, the pirate gets the notification that they have accepted it. And lets the victim go. If the victim counter offers, the pirate gets the counter offer and 'accept' 'reject' or 'counter offer' Pirates may only lower their demands from the initial ask in the counter offer. Victims may only up their asks in counter offers. Each time back and forth they get 'accept' 'reject' 'counter offer' If either side rejects out of hand, the pirate may proceed.

Assuming they both click accept. The escrow service in 60 minutes (after verifying no killmail shows up via api) releases the isk (at some point, the pirate will have to trust the escrow service will do it when a deputy gets online)

If a killmail shows up, (dishonored ransom) the escrow service does not disburse the funds.

As long as the pages are pretty responsive, this could be completed in under 1 minute.

The escrow service charges 10% at deposit time, and the isk may be withdrawn at any time (minus the 10% of course) for the service to the 'victim' side of things. As they are the primary benefactors of a 'safe' way to ransom. Site also keeps track of the 'reputation' of the ransoming parties. So that pirates may get 'better' standings.

Sound reasonable?


bad case scenario, a list of players with isk in ransom escrow gets leaked. Perpetrator goes after players with isk in the service knowing they will pay ransom.
Little Chubby
Atrocity.
#14 - 2014-05-10 13:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Chubby
This takes far too long, in my opinion. I'm not going to let a person go until I have the money myself, and waiting means there's a higher chance of getting a fleet warp in on you or somebody else flying in looking for a target.

It's an interesting idea, but I really don't think it's realistic or necessary when the systems are in place for a customer to buy their ship back directly. I work on a strict policy of honouring ransoms, but if somebody took time by using this I'd kill them out of spite and principle. If they're going to this length to not lose isk I'd bet they're carrying something valuable, and I have no qualms about playing loot fairy roulette.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#15 - 2014-05-11 00:59:12 UTC
lanyaie wrote:
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Aside from Chribba, about the only other folks I think anybody would trust to run this service honestly would be either Red Frog or E-Uni.



Guess what? you're wrong.



How so?

I have doubts about the Uni but Red Frog is pretty reputable.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#16 - 2014-05-11 06:41:00 UTC
I spoke to a fairly well known third party about this a while ago. Their attitude was that it was too labor intensive (from a 3rd party POV) to be worth their while setting up.

I would like to see this service started sometime. My attitude is that the ransom is honored once you either dock, or leave a system with a station that you could have docked at.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-05-11 07:32:18 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I spoke to a fairly well known third party about this a while ago. Their attitude was that it was too labor intensive (from a 3rd party POV) to be worth their while setting up.

I would like to see this service started sometime. My attitude is that the ransom is honored once you either dock, or leave a system with a station that you could have docked at.

I'll probably go with a time limit (easier to verify). Also I'll have to see how fast I can get this to work. As was stated above, time is an issue.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!