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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#681 - 2014-05-08 16:38:17 UTC
Marcus Iunius Brutus wrote:
I'm really curious if the upcoming changes will create an industry landscape of specialized production hubs.

If bringing teams to a system with good infrastructure (>5 factories) could outweight penatlies due to higher percentage of goods build there, probably the min/max solution for producers could be to specialize in one type of production and move to a system where others build similar goods so there is much better chance to win auction for the proper teams.
On the other hand, producers of other goods in mentioned system would benefit more by moving to a system that has the teams that they wish to use and in the next cycle they could help win auction for the needed teams so they can stay and profit.


Those with sufficient organization will absolutely create specialized hubs.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#682 - 2014-05-08 19:44:25 UTC
Even those without. We may find highsec hubs find their own little niches, ammo/drones in Dodixie, battlecruisers in Amarr and producers of each gravitate there.

The genuinely organised will pick whatever they want though.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
PDP11
ExoGen Foundation
New Miner's Union
#683 - 2014-05-09 12:59:15 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Even those without. We may find highsec hubs find their own little niches, ammo/drones in Dodixie, battlecruisers in Amarr and producers of each gravitate there.

The genuinely organised will pick whatever they want though.


I would expect the racial variant of a ship type will typically be cheapest where there is the highest demand. I doubt Rens will be the best place to buy Amarr battleships in quantity. Jita will still dominate and the lesser hubs will return a higher margin on lower turnovers. The exception being markets that are manipulated for non-profit reasons. All the HiSec hubs carry most items and any shortages created would basically be filled by the traders. Therefore I'm not expecting a significant number of niche markets developing in specific hubs.

Agree that the genuinely organised should come out on top. I'm not expecting much of an initial spike in prices this time unless there is a industrialist's protest with the mass withdrawal of items from the market.
cyboman
My Wormhole Hurts
#684 - 2014-05-09 13:05:12 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
...... One of my first instincts is going to be seeing if using teams actually hurts a local system.



i would agree. Having a massive amount of groups move into a system to use the best team would drive up costs because of the cost of the job. Having unlimited slots that are driven by how many jobs are produced would totally offset the bonus of the team.

The real question is : what is the goal of ALL of this? I would say to spread people out into systems that are not being populated.

Best to find a quiet system, bid and win a team that fits your needs and enjoy the savings.
PDP11
ExoGen Foundation
New Miner's Union
#685 - 2014-05-10 11:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: PDP11
cyboman wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
...... One of my first instincts is going to be seeing if using teams actually hurts a local system.

i would agree. Having a massive amount of groups move into a system to use the best team would drive up costs because of the cost of the job. Having unlimited slots that are driven by how many jobs are produced would totally offset the bonus of the team.
The real question is : what is the goal of ALL of this? I would say to spread people out into systems that are not being populated.
Best to find a quiet system, bid and win a team that fits your needs and enjoy the savings.

Raw materials are probably going to be the major headache for the transients.
Suppose they arrive as a swarm of flies around deadbeef into a HiSec system (just to simplify this example) which has a wonderful team bonus for a month. Where are they sourcing their raw materials? Local market prices for raw materials spike and profit plummets. The smart locals may sell raw materials into a price spike then stock up later for the next time. Maybe the swarm of flies arrive with their own freighters with the raw materials for one months production. They are open to be ganked both ways, entering the system with raw materials or leaving with the finished products. If the locals know what team bonuses are likely to apply if they win a team auction then the smart operators may vacuum up the raw materials from the regional market before the flies arrive.

Of course the other effect might be to weaken the existing trade hubs like Amarr and cause a drift towards likely production power houses like Penirgman. Why bother shipping from Penirgman to Amarr if your market is price sensitive.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#686 - 2014-05-10 11:29:34 UTC
Teams: Large, rich, powerful corps become ever larger, richer and more powerful and new, small, casual corps get crushed.

And if you try to move materials into a system that they've loaded up with all the best teams expect to have to run a gank gauntlet.

It seems that CCP wants every player in the game to be a goon. Resistance is futile.


There is soooooooo much to hate and so little to like about this summer's release. If cloaky camping had not already caused me to unsub all my accounts, these industry changes most certainly would. If I were sticking around, I'd simply stop manufacturing anything and just sell the mine and sell the minerals. The new system is going to be so overly manipulated by the goons that it will simply not be worth it to build anything.
TopTrader
Tech3 Company
#687 - 2014-05-10 17:03:08 UTC
Did i read it right, these teams are public, thought its a personal thing?
Sigras
Conglomo
#688 - 2014-05-10 23:59:45 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Just a thought but isn;t null industry already clumped around very few outposts? Doesn't this make it very easy for the industrialists there to chip in small amounts that aggregate and guarantee the best teams (therefore best profits)? This pushes more S&I advantage into null i would think?

You really think null sec can compete with the high sec industrialists? Even the goons cant compete with jita.
Sigras
Conglomo
#689 - 2014-05-11 00:11:01 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Teams: Large, rich, powerful corps become ever larger, richer and more powerful and new, small, casual corps get crushed.

And if you try to move materials into a system that they've loaded up with all the best teams expect to have to run a gank gauntlet.

It seems that CCP wants every player in the game to be a goon. Resistance is futile.


There is soooooooo much to hate and so little to like about this summer's release. If cloaky camping had not already caused me to unsub all my accounts, these industry changes most certainly would. If I were sticking around, I'd simply stop manufacturing anything and just sell the mine and sell the minerals. The new system is going to be so overly manipulated by the goons that it will simply not be worth it to build anything.

Clearly you're unable to see past your own biases... Can I have your stuff?

Large corps are going to duke it out paying for the best teams and the smaller groups are going to just be able to move in and take advantage for free... then when the system gets too crowded and the costs get too high, you can just leave. Unless you're an idiot and pack your freighter full of megacyte or something stupid like that.

This is a buff to small mobile corps not a nerf.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#690 - 2014-05-11 00:42:34 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Just a thought but isn;t null industry already clumped around very few outposts? Doesn't this make it very easy for the industrialists there to chip in small amounts that aggregate and guarantee the best teams (therefore best profits)? This pushes more S&I advantage into null i would think?

You really think null sec can compete with the high sec industrialists? Even the goons cant compete with jita.

because of manufacturing slot availability and pre-nerfed pos modules.

of which are about to change.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#691 - 2014-05-11 00:45:05 UTC
Sigras wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Teams: Large, rich, powerful corps become ever larger, richer and more powerful and new, small, casual corps get crushed.

And if you try to move materials into a system that they've loaded up with all the best teams expect to have to run a gank gauntlet.

It seems that CCP wants every player in the game to be a goon. Resistance is futile.


There is soooooooo much to hate and so little to like about this summer's release. If cloaky camping had not already caused me to unsub all my accounts, these industry changes most certainly would. If I were sticking around, I'd simply stop manufacturing anything and just sell the mine and sell the minerals. The new system is going to be so overly manipulated by the goons that it will simply not be worth it to build anything.

Clearly you're unable to see past your own biases... Can I have your stuff?

Large corps are going to duke it out paying for the best teams and the smaller groups are going to just be able to move in and take advantage for free... then when the system gets too crowded and the costs get too high, you can just leave. Unless you're an idiot and pack your freighter full of megacyte or something stupid like that.

This is a buff to small mobile corps not a nerf.

you forget the amount of materials that it will take to make such a move profitable, and with the increased risk of gank gauntlets player motivation to follow such a nomadic lifestyle goes down. the cost of freighters will go up before the cost of ganking one will. another hit against doing such a move.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#692 - 2014-05-11 15:43:46 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Just a thought but isn;t null industry already clumped around very few outposts? Doesn't this make it very easy for the industrialists there to chip in small amounts that aggregate and guarantee the best teams (therefore best profits)? This pushes more S&I advantage into null i would think?

You really think null sec can compete with the high sec industrialists? Even the goons cant compete with jita.


They don't want to compete with jita they want trade hubs in null totally goon controlled and without all the nasty jump fuel costs of transport...why not? It's what i would try to engineer...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#693 - 2014-05-11 16:56:33 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Just a thought but isn;t null industry already clumped around very few outposts? Doesn't this make it very easy for the industrialists there to chip in small amounts that aggregate and guarantee the best teams (therefore best profits)? This pushes more S&I advantage into null i would think?

You really think null sec can compete with the high sec industrialists? Even the goons cant compete with jita.

we can't now at all, yeah

but we'll see what we can do once we get the tools

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
tx eight
The Dry Stout Society
#694 - 2014-05-11 20:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: tx eight
Weaselior wrote:


we can't now at all, yeah

but we'll see what we can do once we get the tools


You can't compete with yourself now. What makes you think "the tools" will change that?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#695 - 2014-05-11 20:55:35 UTC
That doesn't make any sense at all.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#696 - 2014-05-11 21:00:40 UTC
tx eight wrote:
Weaselior wrote:


we can't now at all, yeah

but we'll see what we can do once we get the tools


You can't compete with yourself now. What makes you think "the tools" will change that?



....


When he says "we can't now .."
He means

"we [the Goons] can't now at all, .. {compete with Jita]
but we'll see what we can do when we get the tools [unlimited slots in stations and upgraded pos manufacturing/refining - Summer industry expansion] "

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#697 - 2014-05-11 21:08:36 UTC
Since hi-sec will get exactly those same tools, I suspect that what he's mostly referring to is the better refining efficiency along with the ability to monopolise teams attracted to 0.0 systems.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
tx eight
The Dry Stout Society
#698 - 2014-05-11 21:15:21 UTC
Well, think about it.

Who is going to compete with whom? There are only so many people in this game that are able and find it fun to organize significantly large-scale production. It does not matter where this production is right now - as conditions change with the summer release, they will adjust. Those that won't are only good for the many ragequit post all over the forums lately. Irrelevant.

So we shed from the consideration those that can't face a(ny) challenge. Who are we left with? Those that can. Where are the majority of them them? Nullsec, with alts in hisec. Or the other way around. So, given that the US TZ is dominant, and the nullsec is currently called "the blue donut", where are the majority of them? Right there - flying null, producing in high. Or the other way around, it doesn't matter. So as the currenlty most numerous part of the "blue donut", your competition ends up being your own alts.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#699 - 2014-05-11 21:18:27 UTC
Sounds like your 'problem' is well beyond the scope of kronos.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
tx eight
The Dry Stout Society
#700 - 2014-05-11 21:36:18 UTC
I wouldn't call that a problem.

But you are right.