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Combat Drone Operation Being Effectively Removed from the Game

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Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#81 - 2014-05-09 21:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Radelix Cisko
I can only dream that all these drone threads get combined into one threadnought that can be banished into a fiery cesspit. CDO to V is a ~11 day (I will grant you per account) skill in a game that has 22 years worth of training to do. I did train it my first year and it has served me well. Seriously though we are getting more SP from the skills that are replacing it, your precious SP number will go up post patch and your drones will work just fine.


TL;DR
Shut up, drones will work the and we get more SP, CCP is fixing skills to be more coherent.

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#82 - 2014-05-10 08:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Radelix Cisko wrote:
Seriously though we are getting more SP from the skills that are replacing it, your precious SP number will go up post patch and your drones will work just fine.

Why are you fixated on increasing SP numbers. If anything that is a nerf as clone costs increase as a result. No one has been arguing for more SP, just a more fair method of skill transition.

I'll actually benefit myself from this new method on most of my characters as they don't have combat drone operation trained to a high level if at all. So you are swinging in the dark there a bit with your last comment.
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#83 - 2014-05-10 08:28:35 UTC
I think there could be a fairer way to handle this than the one proposed by CCP.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2014-05-10 08:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
I'm pretty ticked off that I wasted 10d x6 training a skill to 5 that I didn't need and is now being removed from the game.



I trained that skill abut 6 years ago. It was worth it for me then, and it was worth it for you when you trained it.

I only trained it b/c of the devblog, and I only trained it in the last few weeks.

Was not worth it at all.


So you were training a skill you don't need, because a devblog about upcoming changes, which weren't final yet, told you you'd get extra SP then in skills you apparently don't need.

I guess it was your decision to train something you don't need.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something here? Question

Edit:
Xasnevian wrote:
I think there could be a fairer way to handle this than the one proposed by CCP.


I'm curious: How would you do it, without people losing the ability to use drones with the same efficiency they could before the changes?
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#85 - 2014-05-10 09:29:00 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:


So you were training a skill you don't need, because a devblog about upcoming changes, which weren't final yet, told you you'd get extra SP then in skills you apparently don't need.

I guess it was your decision to train something you don't need.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something here? Question

are you daft? i don't need the skill because CCP is removing the skill entirely. having sdo 5 is enough. why would i train a skill being removed other than because CCP told me i needed to in order to have drones unlocked?
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
#86 - 2014-05-10 14:50:23 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:
I'm curious: How would you do it, without people losing the ability to use drones with the same efficiency they could before the changes?


Let's summarise what happened.

First proposal in devblog by CCP Rise:

  • Combat drone operation (x2) --> Light drone operation (x1) + Medium drone operation (x2)
  • Some renaming of skills (non-relevant)


Everyone with lvl 5 gains the same amount of skill points and people that don't have Combat drone operation lvl 5 yet, have time to train this skill. Everybody is happy. (this is very similar to the Destroyer and BattleCruiser skill split)

All of a sudden, (just a few?) people start talking about drones being skill intensive, new players and alts. For instance (nothing personal, Luscius Uta, your post was the one that caught my eye):

Luscius Uta wrote:
Splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills is hardly going to make drone usage less skill-intensive, since it's gonna add one more week of training. ... but there'll be newer players and maybe even your alts coming to EVE after this change and this will affect them.


A few posts later, CCP Fozzie posts the following:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime.


I admit that I just skimmed the thread, but I really didn't see that many people suggesting this. Also, if I understand correctly, the proposal is being changed because drones are skill intensive and new players are affected by this change. This change of heart does not make sense, because drones are equally skill intensive for new players (and alts) with CCP Rise's proposal as with CCP Fozzie's proposal.

The only ones affected by changing to CCP Fozzie's proposal are existing players. Nobody loses skillpoints. But his proposal gives some players (with Combat drone operation trained) less skillpoints than other players (with Combat drone operation NOT trained). I don't think this is fair and doesn't treat every player equally.

I say, go back to CCP Rise's proposal.
Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-05-10 14:53:56 UTC
So much entitled whining. HTFU. :)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#88 - 2014-05-10 18:34:15 UTC
CCP should remove CDO, and replace it with nothing. Just for the entitlement crowd.
Beofryn Sedorak
#89 - 2014-05-10 18:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Beofryn Sedorak
Combat Drone Operation is the skill that gives 5% damage per level. It is being split into two, 5% damage per level skills. One for light drones, and one for medium drones. It is not being removed in any way shape or form.

Scout Drone Operation is currently a 5k bonus to drone control range per level. It's also currently the prerequisite for t2 drones. It will be renamed to Drone Avionics and still give you 5k per range per level. It will no longer be the prerequisite for t2 drones.

Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation will (more appropriately) be the t2 Light and Medium drone prerequisites

Combat Drone Operation Is still being used to decide your L/M Drone Operation skill, Scout Drone Operation is ALSO being used to decide your new levels of L/M Drone Operation as it used to be the prerequisite for t2 drones.

This isn't that complicated.

TL;DR No. It's not.
Beofryn Sedorak
#90 - 2014-05-10 18:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Beofryn Sedorak
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:


So you were training a skill you don't need, because a devblog about upcoming changes, which weren't final yet, told you you'd get extra SP then in skills you apparently don't need.

I guess it was your decision to train something you don't need.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something here? Question

are you daft? i don't need the skill because CCP is removing the skill entirely. having sdo 5 is enough. why would i train a skill being removed other than because CCP told me i needed to in order to have drones unlocked?


The skill is not being removed, it's being split. Instead of one 5% damage per level skill for both light and medium drones, there will be a 5% damage per level skill for light and one for medium drones.

Training a skill based on anything other than the actual release is refered to speculating. It's called that because it's subject to change. This situation is the method of releasing changes early for player scrutiny and review working as intended.
CCP Doesn't owe anyone anything.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#91 - 2014-05-10 19:50:38 UTC
Lothros Andastar wrote:
So much entitled whining. HTFU. :)

It is amusing, I think most people that comment on the GD forums are akin to sheep bleating the same line without actually processing what has been said. They probably don't even understand how this skill transition works. I'm actually benefitting from this change, but I can also see that it is not the best and most fair way to do it. There is no perfect solution, although I do believe being up front and simply removing CDO from the game would be the most fair way to go about things.

That said, whatever happens I am benefitting from it.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#92 - 2014-05-10 20:02:40 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:

are you daft? i don't need the skill because CCP is removing the skill entirely. having sdo 5 is enough. why would i train a skill being removed other than because CCP told me i needed to in order to have drones unlocked?


Because doing +25% extra damage for a month instead of +20% in the meantime is such a terrible waste. /s
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2014-05-10 20:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'll probably get flamed for this, but to me it seems Combat Drone Operation is now being removed from the game although no SP reimbursement as in the case of learning skills.

If you made fewer nihilist statements like this one you would receive fewer flames. I suspect that if you have all your drone skills trained up to 5 you will probably come out ahead of the game.. and as stated above actually end up with more SP. I don't like losing skills that I've worked hard to train.. (I didn't even like losing the learning skills) but I'm not worried CCP is going to cheat me with a drone change - if anything it will add to the discipline... and to me, more complexity equals good.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2014-05-10 22:39:59 UTC
Would people please stop saying "you'll have more SP!"

Like, I get now that these changes are fine but having more SP means absolutely nothing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2014-05-10 22:42:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Would people please stop saying "you'll have more SP!"

Like, I get now that these changes are fine but having more SP means absolutely nothing.

Since the complaint is often phrased in terms of getting an SP refund, pointing out that you get more SP seems like a fairly reasonable way to demonstrate that such a refund doesn't make much sense.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#96 - 2014-05-11 01:12:33 UTC
I wish I could "Like" Tippia more than once per post.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-05-11 03:16:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Would people please stop saying "you'll have more SP!"

Like, I get now that these changes are fine but having more SP means absolutely nothing.

Since the complaint is often phrased in terms of getting an SP refund, pointing out that you get more SP seems like a fairly reasonable way to demonstrate that such a refund doesn't make much sense.

We don't really get to choose where it goes though. But I digress.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Audrey UntzUntz
Doomheim
#98 - 2014-05-11 03:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Audrey UntzUntz
Tippia wrote:
The two old skills are being replaced by three new ones. Your old levels decide what you'll have in the new skills. If you haven't trained anything, you don't get anything. This makes it completely unlike the learning skill case.

No, they do not. My old level - non plural - decides my level for three new skills.
In this case where I have SDO V, my training in CDO V is completely irrelevent. It does not affect my skills post-patch.

Quote:
Yes it is. No SP is lost. No training time is lost. At worst (if you have trained nothing) you come out the same as before. In all other cases, your old SP is transformed into new SP — in every case more than you had before.

I understand that you are horribly upset that some will gain more than others, but attempting to paint it as them giving out abilities to everyone is unintelligent and dishonest.

Your problem is you don't seem to realize how gaining extra free SP is in fact an advantage and unfair to the others.

Quote:
…if you've trained one or more of the old skills, and that's what makes it a good deal for everyone involved.

That's what makes it arbitrarily a better deal for players who we're not aware enough to follow dev blogs. If you try to turn this on me by saying I wasn't aware enough to follow dev blog threads, then we know you're grasping at straws.


Here's the real reason why this whole situation is crap:
- The dev blog clearly states only CDO V
- The dev blog, one month after SDO V changes were announced, was still not updated
- No where in the dev blog does it state the changes are not final or will be adjusted.

Even if we're wrong in regards to the SP issue, we are not wrong to ask for a refund when it was CCP who mislead us with the information. Many of us have trained CDO V in the past few weeks and it is for nothing. That is to say, we'd be in the exact same situation post-update if we didn't train it at all. That is not our fault, that is CCP's fault. I am not a mind reader who magically knows that changes announced in the dev blog aren't final (yes I'm fairly new).

So let's be very clear here:
- People read the dev blog.
- The dev blog states CDO will be split.
- The dev blog does not state the adjustments are not final or subject to change.
- People as a result trained up CDO V on characters they otherwise would not have, to save potential training time. These players as a result have lost training time due to the misinformation in the dev blog.

Do you see the problem? Probably not; hopefully CCP does.
Beofryn Sedorak
#99 - 2014-05-11 03:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Beofryn Sedorak
Audrey UntzUntz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The two old skills are being replaced by three new ones. Your old levels decide what you'll have in the new skills. If you haven't trained anything, you don't get anything. This makes it completely unlike the learning skill case.

No, they do not. My old level - non plural - decides my level for three new skills.
In this case where I have SDO V, my training in CDO V is completely irrelevent. It does not affect my skills post-patch.

Quote:
Yes it is. No SP is lost. No training time is lost. At worst (if you have trained nothing) you come out the same as before. In all other cases, your old SP is transformed into new SP — in every case more than you had before.

I understand that you are horribly upset that some will gain more than others, but attempting to paint it as them giving out abilities to everyone is unintelligent and dishonest.

Your problem is you don't seem to realize how gaining extra free SP is in fact an advantage and unfair to the others.

Quote:
…if you've trained one or more of the old skills, and that's what makes it a good deal for everyone involved.

That's what makes it arbitrarily a better deal for players who we're not aware enough to follow dev blogs. If you try to turn this on me by saying I wasn't aware enough to follow dev blog threads, then we know you're grasping at straws.


Here's the real reason why this whole situation is crap:
- The dev blog clearly states only CDO V
- The dev blog, one month after SDO V changes were announces, was still not updated
- No where in the dev blog does it state the changes are not final or will be adjusted.

Even if we're wrong in regards to the SP issue, we are not wrong to ask for a refund when it was CCP who mislead us with the information. Many of us have trained CDO V in the past few weeks and it is for nothing. That is to say, we'd be in the exact same situation post-update if we didn't train it at all. That is not our fault, that is CCP's fault. I am not a mind reader who magically knows that changes announced in the dev blog aren't final (yes I'm fairly new).


I can disassemble your entire argument in one line.

Ready?

Here we go: "All pre-release information is subject to change."

Solved! You can go home now.

Anyone that took the time train CDO 5 was doing what is referred to as speculating and it inherently has risks. Like investing your skill training time into something that won't end up being the most efficient way. CCP Doesn't owe you anything. This is the system of releasing changes ahead of time for player/peer review and after gathering feedback making changes working as intended. Everyone always talks about CCP listening. This is a result of them listening.

You get the benefit of CDO 5 between the time you trained it and when the change happens. Therefore it's not wasted time.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-05-11 05:26:19 UTC
Audrey UntzUntz wrote:
Even if we're wrong in regards to the SP issue, we are not wrong to ask for a refund when it was CCP who mislead us with the information. Many of us have trained CDO V in the past few weeks and it is for nothing.

Yes, you were wrong about the SP issue. You don't get an SP refund simply because other people in the game will gain more SP than you as a result of rule changes.

The real mistake here is you jumping the gun and training CDO V based on something in a dev post. I don't think you should be rewarded for that.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.