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Please explain steath patch to WH-space

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Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics
#21 - 2011-12-02 17:28:18 UTC
Tora Oni wrote:
CCP should pay us isks for every new bug reported. We are paying customers, not unpayed bughunters.....P Why would i have to fill in a form. Be lucky I am reporting it at all.....


I agree. also, why is it when i go into a restaurant they don't cut up and chew my food for me? I've certainly paid for this steak, why should i have to go through all this effort to enjoy it?

srs: Bug reports let CCP know about issues so they get fixed. They benefit you, in that those bugs get fixed quickly and you can go back to enjoying internet spaceships without the hassle.

As to the OP, I was a little concerned about the jumps API removal as well at first (it was handy for figuring out system activity levels, for example), but it's certainly nothing you can't adapt around; i know we have. CCP should obviously go the full route and remove all system API calls from w-space just for consistency's sake, but otherwise I'm happy with things as they stand.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-12-02 17:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:


Bug report it properly like you and everyone should be doing but aren't



Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.


My brand new car has a defect. It seems that the brakes don't work correctly. I am not going to report that though since I should not have to. I paid for this car it is up to the manufacturer to catch the problem and fix it before I die.

Very Darwin of you.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Poloturion
Genco Pura Olive Oil Company.
#23 - 2011-12-02 18:02:11 UTC
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwich and then being told to make it yourself.


Your metaphor is stupid. Someone telling you to make your own sandwich would be like CCP telling you to dig into the code and fix it yourself.

A far better one for this case would be buying a sandwich and being expected to tell the clerk when they mix up your order and gave you chicken instead of ham. Then again that almost makes the expectation that users should report bugs they find reasonable so I can see why you didn't use it.

Also, please fix POS.
Arjola Elongur
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-12-02 18:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Arjola Elongur
Poloturion wrote:
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwich and then being told to make it yourself.


Your metaphor is stupid. Someone telling you to make your own sandwich would be like CCP telling you to dig into the code and fix it yourself.

A far better one for this case would be buying a sandwich and being expected to tell the clerk when they mix up your order and gave you chicken instead of ham. Then again that almost makes the expectation that users should report bugs they find reasonable so I can see why you didn't use it.

Your metaphor is stupid!
As stupid as all the other ones trying to compare a mass-produced item with an online software service.
There's only 1 EVE, not hundreds of thousands and certainly none made specifically for you.

You want a fitting metaphor, compare it to a unique thing several thousand people share, like a public building.
You still think the owner of the building has no way of knowing something's wrong?
Still think you need to tell them, so they can know there's a problem?


Handsome Hussein wrote:
Do you want the problem solved quickly?

Getting bugs fixed quickly? Lol
Are we still talking about EVE Online?

Do you honestly believe POS are still the crap they are because CCP just don't know?
The info is here, right at their fingertips, in their own forums.
Their customers already let them know and you try to tell us that doesn't count because it wasn't put into the right form?
You're a funny guy...
Handsome Hussein
#25 - 2011-12-02 18:37:30 UTC
Arjola Elongur wrote:
Getting bugs fixed quickly? Lol
Are we still talking about EVE Online?

Do you honestly believe POS are still the crap they are because CCP just don't know?
The info is here, right at their fingertips, in their own forums.
Their customers already let them know and you try to tell us that doesn't count because it wasn't put into the right form?
You're a funny guy...

I see CCP fixing bugs quickly all the time. POS operational efficiency is not a "bug", it's poor design. Designing and implementing a new interface for POS operation (that works for everyone) is completely different from fixing a bug.

Arjola Elongur wrote:
You want a fitting metaphor, compare it to a unique thing several thousand people share, like a public building.
You still think the owner of the building has no way of knowing something's wrong?
Still think you need to tell them, so they can know there's a problem?

When I have a problem with the house I rent, I call the landlord and tell him, I don't put up a bunch of flyers on random telephone poles in the hopes he'll see them. You see, the landlord has provided me (and the other tenants he rents to) with his phone number in the hopes that he can route and solve the issues I have in a timely manner. The same applies to an apartment building; if I have an issue, I call the landlord rather than running through the halls like an idiot screaming about my issue.

tbh, you're not funny, so thanks for the compliment I guess.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
Teh Frog
Exotic Connections
#26 - 2011-12-02 18:41:24 UTC
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:


Bug report it properly like you and everyone should be doing but aren't



Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.


No thats like ordering a sandwich without tomatoes, getting tomatoes, then bitching about it to another customer who then tells you to talk to management instead if hearing you ***** all the while enjoying his tomato filled sandwich.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-12-02 19:03:13 UTC
Teh Frog wrote:
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:


Bug report it properly like you and everyone should be doing but aren't



Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.


No thats like ordering a sandwich without tomatoes, getting tomatoes, then bitching about it to another customer who then tells you to talk to management instead if hearing you ***** all the while enjoying his tomato filled sandwich.


******* tomato's...they will be the end of us all! Attack of the killer tomato's!

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Tora Oni
Legendary Sidekicks in Space
#28 - 2011-12-02 19:07:55 UTC
OOoo screww it ! I am getting fish and chips ! Ugh
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#29 - 2011-12-02 19:15:37 UTC
Teh Frog wrote:
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:


Bug report it properly like you and everyone should be doing but aren't



Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.


No thats like ordering a sandwich without tomatoes, getting tomatoes, then bitching about it to another customer who then tells you to talk to management instead if hearing you ***** all the while enjoying his tomato filled sandwich.


What if you didn't order tomatoes, actually like tomatoes and have to decide whether to complain about not getting what you ordered or actually eating what you didn't order and didn't realize you like better?

I've never had this happen, but it's good to be prepared...

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Arjola Elongur
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-12-02 19:35:42 UTC
Handsome Hussein wrote:
Arjola Elongur wrote:
Getting bugs fixed quickly? Lol
Are we still talking about EVE Online?

Do you honestly believe POS are still the crap they are because CCP just don't know?
The info is here, right at their fingertips, in their own forums.
Their customers already let them know and you try to tell us that doesn't count because it wasn't put into the right form?
You're a funny guy...

I see CCP fixing bugs quickly all the time. POS operational efficiency is not a "bug", it's poor design. Designing and implementing a new interface for POS operation (that works for everyone) is completely different from fixing a bug.


Except that fitting issues with POS is not an problem of "operational efficiency" but a bug that has been lingering for years.

And you're still acting like you believe CCP being unaware of the bugs is the sole reason for their existence.
If only the players would act more reasonable, eh?

Well, keep lying to yourself, you appear to have a talent for that...
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-12-02 19:39:54 UTC
Wait, "Huss ein" is filtered now?
Let's test: Barack Hussein Obama"
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#32 - 2011-12-02 21:14:59 UTC
This thread is going astray lol.

I am willing to report bugs for nothing, all in the hope I am being heard and this game gets better.

Maybe it's the same with religions, maybe a god will listen and act?

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Tas Nok
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-12-03 04:52:28 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ugh... if you've seen me post at all you'll know I go off about things people propose that would nerf wormhole space. That being said...

I have to admit, even though the lack of jump intel was a bit of a surprise and can hurt in some degree... it's universal and makes sense in Anoikis space. Seriously, how are you keeping tracks of jumps through a transitory cosmic hiccup in the first place? Gates, sure, they're tied into a network. Wormholes...

Here's what I see... we're losing the free intel of seeing how active a system is and at what times of day it's active. This was really REALLY useful information for a variety of things, such as planning system assaults, etc. Now, if you want to do it you have to do it yourself. Get your cloaky into the system unseen, find a comfy place around the pos with DScan humming away softly in the background, put on a little Mozart and observe. As you see people, put them in your contacts list. Take notes. Watch. Wait.

Part of me hates that we're losing something we've had for so long, but instead of nerfing wormhole life it's adding an extra little bit of danger to things. In these times where everyone's screaming for areas of space to be safer and more nerfed it's actually a little refreshing. We do fine without the other empire crutches the weaker players need... local, dedicated entries and exits, cynos and jump bridges, etc. We'll do fine without this. Welcome to the frontier space of Eve. This is how it was meant to be.


I pretty much agree with everything you said, I understand the new danger as well as the opportunity it opens up as well, that still doesn't let CCP off the hook for making the change without warning.

I now have to blow more of my time each day securing my space, whereas before, I only had to do so if there had been jumps recently..(which was 50% of the time). Its just a little annoying that I have to assume my WH is open 100% of the time.

It does make WH space more dangerous and in line with the idea that it is potentially the most dangerous space in Eve, opening up the possibilities for WH raids, sneak attacks, and other tactics that jumps gave away.
Mirima Thurander
#34 - 2011-12-03 05:02:54 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


The killboards. There are things they need to know.



REMOVE The killboards AND remove killmails now we don't needs any of this API free none worked for intel.

EvEs a better place.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-12-03 05:08:18 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ugh... if you've seen me post at all you'll know I go off about things people propose that would nerf wormhole space. That being said...

I have to admit, even though the lack of jump intel was a bit of a surprise and can hurt in some degree... it's universal and makes sense in Anoikis space. Seriously, how are you keeping tracks of jumps through a transitory cosmic hiccup in the first place? Gates, sure, they're tied into a network. Wormholes...

Here's what I see... we're losing the free intel of seeing how active a system is and at what times of day it's active. This was really REALLY useful information for a variety of things, such as planning system assaults, etc. Now, if you want to do it you have to do it yourself. Get your cloaky into the system unseen, find a comfy place around the pos with DScan humming away softly in the background, put on a little Mozart and observe. As you see people, put them in your contacts list. Take notes. Watch. Wait.

Part of me hates that we're losing something we've had for so long, but instead of nerfing wormhole life it's adding an extra little bit of danger to things. In these times where everyone's screaming for areas of space to be safer and more nerfed it's actually a little refreshing. We do fine without the other empire crutches the weaker players need... local, dedicated entries and exits, cynos and jump bridges, etc. We'll do fine without this. Welcome to the frontier space of Eve. This is how it was meant to be.


No, intel on how active a system might be was not lost. The only information that was lost was the ability to see jumps. What remains is dinner bell intel, aka intel on when someone is farming. Since they're farming you an expect an easy kill since they'll be pve fit and you'll be pvp fit. The advantage of this kind of intel is that you can go to jita while waiting for the inhabitants to start farming. Then when you see that first NPC kill you can make your way back and have them handed to you on a plate.

Just remove it all, I say. But, then you know this already.

Don't ban me, bro!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#36 - 2011-12-03 05:19:52 UTC
Khamal Jolstien wrote:
Jack Tronic wrote:


Bug report it properly like you and everyone should be doing but aren't



Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.

because you want it to get fixed and are not a arrogant customer?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#37 - 2011-12-03 05:36:41 UTC
I'm glad the jumps API was removed for WH's - it made zero sense, and completely broke the aura of mystery that WH space had at Apocrypha's launch.

It's just unfortunate that the API for NPC kills hasn't been removed. There is no sensible reason, that I can find, for it existing in the first place... Don't get me wrong - it's bloody useful, and I've relied on it heavily in the past, in the same way that I used the jump info - but it's still stupid.

I don't have any particular issue though, with Ship Kills being available through API - as the 'Pend Insurance' payout system provides a plausible explanation of the meta-game mechanic. So, I'd be in favour of keeping that.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#38 - 2011-12-03 14:13:02 UTC
Hiram Alexander wrote:
I'm glad the jumps API was removed for WH's - it made zero sense, and completely broke the aura of mystery that WH space had at Apocrypha's launch.

It's just unfortunate that the API for NPC kills hasn't been removed. There is no sensible reason, that I can find, for it existing in the first place... Don't get me wrong - it's bloody useful, and I've relied on it heavily in the past, in the same way that I used the jump info - but it's still stupid.

I don't have any particular issue though, with Ship Kills being available through API - as the 'Pend Insurance' payout system provides a plausible explanation of the meta-game mechanic. So, I'd be in favour of keeping that.


I'm in line with you and Mr. Kidd on this, mainly because it adds to the mystery and frontier aspect in wormholes... the not knowing what the hell is going on on the other side part of it. That's how it should be imo. The API data... hell ya I've used it, we'd be foolish not to if it's there... but we'd do fine without it.

It would probably have a side-effect of reducing people visiting wormholes however... at least the people not willing to take a chance and/or gather their own intel. But then again... they shouldn't be in holes in the first place.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lord Noj
23rd Light Dragoons
The Corcu Loigde Alliance
#39 - 2011-12-03 16:40:05 UTC
Going back to the OP, Put me in the get rid of ALL WH intel. After spending a year and a half in a WH, just recently moving out, I used all that intel every single day and the intel drove what was done in the system EVERY SINGLE DAY. WIthout it, well, life would have been entirely different.

BTW, what idiot decided a light blue background with white letters was good for the edit screen for the forums?
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-12-03 16:52:44 UTC
Sweet Trader wrote:
[quote=Tas Nok]
The next step should be for CCP to remove the log of rat kills. The only intel that should be publicly available is player ship and pod kills, presumably public knowledge released by the insurance companies.


Ratitng payouts by concord

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934