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Player Owned Customs Offices: Math, Markets and Design Problems

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2011-12-03 03:42:20 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
And tell me, again, what goonswarm makes a killing off of atm and dominates the market? Moon goo? Hmmm....

What are you talking about now? Don't be shy, spell it out. I'm a dumb goon, remember.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#202 - 2011-12-03 03:45:09 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
And tell me, again, what goonswarm makes a killing off of atm and dominates the market? Moon goo? Hmmm....

What are you talking about now? Don't be shy, spell it out. I'm a dumb goon, remember.


Apparently Mittani was on the CSM before he was ever on the CSM and told us that technetium would get buffed. We lost delve on purpose so that we could move to the north and get given space, you see. The guy who got kicked off the CSM was just the fall guy, he made his hugely obvious market buy to divert suspicion.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#203 - 2011-12-03 03:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Lord Zim wrote:

And how many systems and planets do we not control? What makes those planets radically better compared to the rest of 0.0? And how many players do we have, vs "the rest of the eve universe"?


Because they are effectively under one control. Compared to the rest of the eve universe, not much, compared to the largest territory holder other then you, quite a bit. Remember that each planet only has so much output per day, and that high sec worlds are heavily mined already. Conversely, nullsec worlds have fantastic output individually, but the alliances are keen to compete with each other rather then cooperate.

Lord Zim wrote:

What's to stop anyone from going "oh hey look, they've raised the prices, I can profit!" and going back to making and selling again?


Time. It still takes time to produce any meaningful amount for market, and as soon as anyone does post a meaningful amount, simply lower the price back down again and force them to sell at a loss. Do this enough and peopl will give up rather then try and fight a losing battle.

Lord Zim wrote:

And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec won't?


Well, if they all got together and united into an anti-goons cabal and didn't fight each other, sure. But I give a snowball better odds in hell since by nature low and null sec alliances are a mistrustful and vindictive group who are as quick to turn on each other as they are to unite against a common foe.

Lord Zim wrote:

Why? Are we some sort of magic faeries that just **** out PI goo at a rate no-one can match?


Actually, yes, you could, easily, assuming that the alliance doesn't start stabbing one another in the back.

Edit:

Lord Zim wrote:

What are you talking about now? Don't be shy, spell it out. I'm a dumb goon, remember.


corestwo was implying that the advantage of PI would only have the same impact as the POS savings that alliances get, overlooking that his own alliances makes a considerable portion of it's income exactly that way.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2011-12-03 04:02:09 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Because they are effectively under one control. Compared to the rest of the eve universe, not much, compared to the largest territory holder other then you, quite a bit. Remember that each planet only has so much output per day, and that high sec worlds are heavily mined already. Conversely, nullsec worlds have fantastic output individually, but the alliances are keen to compete with each other rather then cooperate.

That's funny. Last I checked, I setup my own planets, and did my own PI. Or are you saying that everyone in goonswarm are forced to make a certain amount of PI stuff and sell to the alliance so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Time. It still takes time to produce any meaningful amount for market, and as soon as anyone does post a meaningful amount, simply lower the price back down again and force them to sell at a loss. Do this enough and peopl will give up rather then try and fight a losing battle.

And we're still how many percent of 0.0 and lowsec? I'll wait while you count and do the calculations.

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Well, if they all got together and united into an anti-goons cabal and didn't fight each other, sure. But I give a snowball better odds in hell since by nature low and null sec alliances are a mistrustful and vindictive group who are as quick to turn on each other as they are to unite against a common foe.

Ok. I guess we're so big and powerful that there's absolutely ****-all anyone can do to something as spread out as PI. You caught us.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#205 - 2011-12-03 04:07:28 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

That's funny. Last I checked, I setup my own planets, and did my own PI. Or are you saying that everyone in goonswarm are forced to make a certain amount of PI stuff and sell to the alliance so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?


ATM moon goo is more profitable. Once that isn't the case, how long before all those guys with production alts turn them toward profit. Arknor to veldspar you'll get an alliance PI cabal in short order.

Lord Zim wrote:

And we're still how many percent of 0.0 and lowsec? I'll wait while you count and do the calculations.


Doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a united entity rather then the zoo that is lowsec or the other squabbling alliances. High sec has to contend with the fact that 50% of eves active characters live there, so the odds of that unifying any time soon are near nil.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#206 - 2011-12-03 04:08:33 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
corestwo was implying that the advantage of PI would only have the same impact as the POS savings that alliances get, overlooking that his own alliances makes a considerable portion of it's income exactly that way.

Basically. 0.0 takes more effort to hold and typically entails more risks to operate in. This comes with certain perks to compensate.


But I guess you're the type that thinks the game would be at its best if the most money were to be made by running missions in highsec or something.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2011-12-03 04:17:02 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

That's funny. Last I checked, I setup my own planets, and did my own PI. Or are you saying that everyone in goonswarm are forced to make a certain amount of PI stuff and sell to the alliance so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?


ATM moon goo is more profitable. Once that isn't the case, how long before all those guys with production alts turn them toward profit. Arknor to veldspar you'll get an alliance PI cabal in short order.

See below.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
And we're still how many percent of 0.0 and lowsec? I'll wait while you count and do the calculations.


Doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a united entity rather then the zoo that is lowsec or the other squabbling alliances. High sec has to contend with the fact that 50% of eves active characters live there, so the odds of that unifying any time soon are near nil.

So, are you saying that moongoo is profitable for the common goon, or are you saying that PI is nationalized so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?

And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec isn't even remotely unified to "combat" this?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#208 - 2011-12-03 04:21:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

So, are you saying that moongoo is profitable for the common goon, or are you saying that PI is nationalized so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?

And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec isn't even remotely unified to "combat" this?


Zim, 0.0 has a hard time on occasion uniting against a visible military threat. Quite a few of them subcontract the economic side of their empires to third parties that have no idea what is going on in the alliance next door.

I don't know if I'd use the word 'nationalized' but the idea of goonswarm members forming a united economic front is not without precedent.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2011-12-03 04:27:09 UTC
And how much do you really think goonswarm can affect the price without cutting off the supply from other sources?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#210 - 2011-12-03 04:45:43 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
And how much do you really think goonswarm can affect the price without cutting off the supply from other sources?



Quite a bit.

It's not necessary to cut off the supply. Merely undercut it. If the opposition wants any isk at all, they'd either have to find a way to match your prices, though the much loved pew pew, or sell at a loss.

Or give up and go sell something else, which is the most likely event, as players in eve are not known for their ability to wait four or five months to make a sale.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#211 - 2011-12-03 04:59:35 UTC
Figured I'd drop by and share one more tidbit with you, since all your hurfing and blurfing is predicated on a 0% tax rate.


We're actually setting our POCOs at 15%.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#212 - 2011-12-03 05:15:55 UTC
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.
Frog Out
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#213 - 2011-12-03 05:19:27 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


err... wait....



A HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2011-12-03 05:34:11 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.

Well, sucks to be you, then. It is 15%.

But I'm seriously curious as to how low you think we'd have to push the prices down before people would stop trying to sell theirs.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Qris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2011-12-03 05:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Qris
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.



You just spent a whole lot of :words: describing our alliance leader as a dirty conniving no good exploiting cheating bastard, and now you have trouble believing that this said same bastard is too honourable to take isk from the pockets of the common goon?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#216 - 2011-12-03 06:00:35 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.


Interbus POCOs are 17%, everyone works with those until they're replaced. And in any case, 0.0 extracts at a higher rate so even at 15% our guys still come out ahead.


I bet you don't know what to believe now Big smile

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Anela Cistine
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2011-12-03 06:09:21 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.


"The Direkkktorate is f*cking us again." -- popular Goon catchphrase
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#218 - 2011-12-03 06:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Qris wrote:

You just spent a whole lot of :words: describing our alliance leader as a dirty conniving no good exploiting cheating bastard, and now you have trouble believing that this said same bastard is too honourable to take isk from the pockets of the common goon?



When it stands in the way of him making even most isk then he could off you, yes, I find it baffling. Unless it's either a big lie or they're trying hard ot not look like crooks.


Zim, this is just based off my little tours in goon held space, but my estimate is that you could consistently undersell the market by 5% and still make a killing.

That is of course, assuming that this is a plan, and not all a happy coincidence that goonswarms leaders are too dense to realize. Given their success over time, somehow I doubt that they're that blind to the long term possibility.


Of course, if they are, I'm certain one of the other alliances will probably rush to fill the gap.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#219 - 2011-12-03 06:35:04 UTC
The other flaw in your reasoning is that you're assuming that goons are somehow actually a collective economic force. While this is true in some ways, "collectively working together to fix the price of our respective players PI output" is not one of them.

But hey, keep ranting and raving about the big bad goons.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
FastJack316
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2011-12-03 07:14:49 UTC
We market PvP against ourselves way harder than we do against hisec, even counting the ice interdiction. A 40x markup over Jita for basic modules is not unheard of.