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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2461 - 2014-05-10 13:59:48 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Not so much an individual "hog" but changes to the number of launchers and it becoming necessary to alter rigs and modules to take account is really not going to have no effect is it?

Possibly CCP Rise might have realised that if he was able to spend more time considering his changes?

But if you fit faction and deadspace, I am sure there will be suitable fits.

No wonder the Gankers are somewhat excited.


Well, you have 887cpu and you save 19cpu per launcher going from torps and 3 missile rigs (which is so far the only situation anyone mentioned cpu is a problem), where is the problem?

I am really asking, what i have so far tried, i was having trouble maxing the cpu, fitwise.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2462 - 2014-05-10 14:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Barton Breau wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Not so much an individual "hog" but changes to the number of launchers and it becoming necessary to alter rigs and modules to take account is really not going to have no effect is it?

Possibly CCP Rise might have realised that if he was able to spend more time considering his changes?

But if you fit faction and deadspace, I am sure there will be suitable fits.

No wonder the Gankers are somewhat excited.


Well, you have 887cpu and you save 19cpu per launcher going from torps and 3 missile rigs (which is so far the only situation anyone mentioned cpu is a problem), where is the problem?

I am really asking, what i have so far tried, i was having trouble maxing the cpu, fitwise.



The rigs are very hungry on CPU. The Damage mods to drone and ballistic are also hungry, changing the shields to take account of changes, hungry, extra launcher, hungry. Basically it turns a ship with low/moderate CPU needs into one that to get a decent fit for missiles and drones just cannot fit them, with a tank too.

Yes one can, but the requirement for faction and other bling makes it a Gank magnet.
And we all know that most will just try to maximise EFT DPS, and minimal tank.

Hence why some are super excited, not as a ship but as a target.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2463 - 2014-05-10 14:06:36 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Not so much an individual "hog" but changes to the number of launchers and it becoming necessary to alter rigs and modules to take account is really not going to have no effect is it?

Possibly CCP Rise might have realised that if he was able to spend more time considering his changes?

But if you fit faction and deadspace, I am sure there will be suitable fits.

No wonder the Gankers are somewhat excited.


I'd like to see it gain a bit of CPU as well, but there is a good chance that the lack is intentional. Machs, for instance, have an intentional powergrid shortage that keeps them from fitting 1400's without fitting compromises.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2464 - 2014-05-10 14:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Not so much an individual "hog" but changes to the number of launchers and it becoming necessary to alter rigs and modules to take account is really not going to have no effect is it?

Possibly CCP Rise might have realised that if he was able to spend more time considering his changes?

But if you fit faction and deadspace, I am sure there will be suitable fits.

No wonder the Gankers are somewhat excited.


I'd like to see it gain a bit of CPU as well, but there is a good chance that the lack is intentional. Machs, for instance, have an intentional powergrid shortage that keeps them from fitting 1400's without fitting compromises.


You may be entirely right. However the other changes make one, suspicious, that possibly more care or time, may have been needed in creating the rebalance proposal.What?

We will see what we end up with, and whether CCP Fozzie decides that well over a hundred pages of comments might be worth looking at.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2465 - 2014-05-10 14:12:45 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Not so much an individual "hog" but changes to the number of launchers and it becoming necessary to alter rigs and modules to take account is really not going to have no effect is it?

Possibly CCP Rise might have realised that if he was able to spend more time considering his changes?

But if you fit faction and deadspace, I am sure there will be suitable fits.

No wonder the Gankers are somewhat excited.


I'd like to see it gain a bit of CPU as well, but there is a good chance that the lack is intentional. Machs, for instance, have an intentional powergrid shortage that keeps them from fitting 1400's without fitting compromises.


I think you'll find that if you buffer fit it, the CPU is more than enough. If you're dual-asb fitting it then all bets are off. They're not supposed to be easy to fit.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2466 - 2014-05-10 14:14:19 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Well, you have 887cpu and you save 19cpu per launcher going from torps and 3 missile rigs (which is so far the only situation anyone mentioned cpu is a problem), where is the problem?

I am really asking, what i have so far tried, i was having trouble maxing the cpu, fitwise.



The rigs are very hungry on CPU. The Damage mods to drone and ballistic are also hungry, changing the shields to take account of changes, hungry, extra launcher, hungry. Basically it turns a ship with low/moderate CPU needs into one that to get a decent fit for missiles and drones just cannot fit them, with a tank too.

Yes one can, but the requirement for faction and other bling makes it a Gank magnet.
And we all know that most will just try to maximise EFT DPS, and minimal tank.

Hence why some are super excited, not as a ship but as a target.


So in a nutshell, your argument is, that if we use all t2 regardless of other considerations, then there will be not enough cpu, do i understand it correctly?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2467 - 2014-05-10 14:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Not so much an individual "hog" but changes to the number of launchers and it becoming necessary to alter rigs and modules to take account is really not going to have no effect is it?

Possibly CCP Rise might have realised that if he was able to spend more time considering his changes?

But if you fit faction and deadspace, I am sure there will be suitable fits.

No wonder the Gankers are somewhat excited.


I'd like to see it gain a bit of CPU as well, but there is a good chance that the lack is intentional. Machs, for instance, have an intentional powergrid shortage that keeps them from fitting 1400's without fitting compromises.


I think you'll find that if you buffer fit it, the CPU is more than enough. If you're dual-asb fitting it then all bets are off. They're not supposed to be easy to fit.

Agreed, there should be compromises.

I have tried and failed to find a reasonable fit, that gives reasonable tank, reasonable damage application, reasonable missile damage, reasonable drone range, and reasonable drone damage. At a sane cost of fitting.
Not great, not overpowered, something that would make the rattlesnake a good ship to fly for PvE as well as PvP.

By turning it into a gank magnet , I can achieve that, just.
Not overpowered, reasonable.

If you are able to discover one, I personally would love to see it, and that will put to rest forever the claims that it is overpowered.

To me, I believe that due to time constraints, the ship is poorly thought out, poorly designed, and poorly implemented.
It is just far to much effort to make something decent out of the current offering.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2468 - 2014-05-10 14:25:16 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Agreed, there should be compromises.

I have tried and failed to find a reasonable fit, that gives reasonable tank, reasonable damage application, reasonable missile damage, reasonable drone range, and reasonable drone damage. At a sane cost of fitting.
Not great, not overpowered, something that would make the rattlesnake a good ship to fly for PvE as well as PvP.

By turning it into a gank magnet , I can achieve that, just.
Not overpowered, reasonable.

If you are able to discover one, I personally would love to see it, and that will put to rest forever the claims that it is overpowered.


For how much fitting cost are you aiming at?
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2469 - 2014-05-10 14:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

To me, I believe that due to time constraints, the ship is poorly thought out, poorly designed, and poorly implemented.
It is just far to much effort to make something decent out of the current offering.


[Rattlesnake, cruise T2]

5x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Cruise Missile)
Drone Link Augmentor II

EM Ward Field II
5x Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

3x Ballistic Control System II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

3x Large Core Defense Field Extender II

1x Gecko

start here. That should outlast any encounter it finds itself in. particularly if you have logistics and a nighthawk nearby.

Obviously it's not for solo pvp...

Stats (with nighthawk links):
EHP: 307,321
DPS: 1449 to 84km.

that's before overheat.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2470 - 2014-05-10 14:30:16 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Agreed, there should be compromises.

I have tried and failed to find a reasonable fit, that gives reasonable tank, reasonable damage application, reasonable missile damage, reasonable drone range, and reasonable drone damage. At a sane cost of fitting.
Not great, not overpowered, something that would make the rattlesnake a good ship to fly for PvE as well as PvP.

By turning it into a gank magnet , I can achieve that, just.
Not overpowered, reasonable.

If you are able to discover one, I personally would love to see it, and that will put to rest forever the claims that it is overpowered.


For how much fitting cost are you aiming at?


Any decent fit would do.

No point continuing this line of discussion for me.
There is no value in going further with one small issue amongst many, fits can be made, just not good or sensible ones.

The old saying you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear comes to mind.

We need better materials to work with.
This ship proposal needs to be ripped up and started again. The more we look at it the more issues we find, find a good fit to work around this, and the other issues are still there.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
M Key
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2471 - 2014-05-10 14:31:26 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:


For how much fitting cost are you aiming at?


Don't forget you can go a bit bling on it if you want. It has two very good anti-gank attributes. Reputation for insane tank. Ship model is shared with other things that have insane tank. So gankers are going to be scanning the navy ravens, marauders, kitemares, etc. Even when they don't have better things to do, they don't bother.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2472 - 2014-05-10 14:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

To me, I believe that due to time constraints, the ship is poorly thought out, poorly designed, and poorly implemented.
It is just far to much effort to make something decent out of the current offering.


[Rattlesnake, cruise T2]

5x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Cruise Missile)
Drone Link Augmentor II

EM Ward Field II
5x Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

3x Ballistic Control System II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

3x Large Core Defense Field Extender II

1x Gecko

start here. That should outlast any encounter it finds itself in. particularly if you have logistics and a nighthawk nearby.

Obviously it's not for solo pvp...


I was thinking more about PvE but if that fits that is a start, not exactly great damage application though, but in a fleet, i guess you pick only the targets that others have webbed and painted.

Edit corrected:-Is that any better though than a CN Scorpion fitting a gecko and two hammerheads and a hobgoblin? Or 3 Ogres?
I imagine if you can always pick your targets for your damage strengths.

Hmm looks like the CN scorpion is the more balanced ship with many more potential roles.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2473 - 2014-05-10 14:35:10 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

To me, I believe that due to time constraints, the ship is poorly thought out, poorly designed, and poorly implemented.
It is just far to much effort to make something decent out of the current offering.


[Rattlesnake, cruise T2]

5x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Cruise Missile)
Drone Link Augmentor II

EM Ward Field II
5x Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

3x Ballistic Control System II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

3x Large Core Defense Field Extender II

1x Gecko

start here. That should outlast any encounter it finds itself in. particularly if you have logistics and a nighthawk nearby.

Obviously it's not for solo pvp...


I was thinking more about PvE but if that fits that is a start, not exactly great damage application though, but in a fleet, i guess you pick only the targets that others have webbed and painted.


I updated my post with the stats.

Damage application of cruise missiles is excellent.

Of course a painter and web turns it into a monster

Oh and it has a passive recharge of 300dps, even with this simple fit.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2474 - 2014-05-10 14:57:24 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
TehCloud wrote:
Glad I was wrong on the Drone Damage part. The rattle still lacks the fitting to support a 5th launcher though.
Capinjected Torprattle can't fit a Heavy Neut/Nos in it's Utility high, CPU doesn't even allow for a fifth Launcher.


CPU and PG are things we can only fiddle with when they land on sisi. We need to wait for now but it likely does need a bit more room to take the extra launcher into account.



Arent they already written on the first page?

EDIT: are torps even still an option without the velocity bonus?


Always an option. They do have better range than blasters afterall.

CPU and PG are listed in the OP but generally they get altered if they need to be after the changes hit sisi and we have tested the ships
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2475 - 2014-05-10 15:06:23 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Damage application of cruise missiles is excellent.


Thats a new one.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2476 - 2014-05-10 15:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

To me, I believe that due to time constraints, the ship is poorly thought out, poorly designed, and poorly implemented.
It is just far to much effort to make something decent out of the current offering.


[Rattlesnake, cruise T2]

5x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Cruise Missile)
Drone Link Augmentor II

EM Ward Field II
5x Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

3x Ballistic Control System II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

3x Large Core Defense Field Extender II

1x Gecko

start here. That should outlast any encounter it finds itself in. particularly if you have logistics and a nighthawk nearby.

Obviously it's not for solo pvp...


I was thinking more about PvE but if that fits that is a start, not exactly great damage application though, but in a fleet, i guess you pick only the targets that others have webbed and painted.


I updated my post with the stats.

Damage application of cruise missiles is excellent.

Of course a painter and web turns it into a monster

Oh and it has a passive recharge of 300dps, even with this simple fit.



Just plugged things into a CN scorpion better recharge, better overall EHP similar damage, easier application, cap stable +82 onmitank, omni damage plus room for a large smartbomb. Nothing fitted higher than t2

The issue is that the rattler is just meh. It was meh before, but now it is because minimal effort was put into the rebalance of it.
It is just a Pigs ear.

@ccp Must try harder.

Edit slight error, not as much damage. Error on damage totals, they are less. Was thinking it could fit 2 geckos not one.
But it can still apply as much or more omni damage into an explosive or em hole.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2477 - 2014-05-10 15:18:45 UTC
Neither the Navy Scorpion nor the revised Rattlesnake have a damage application bonus.

They apply damage with cruise missiles exactly the same.

Enough with your lies.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2478 - 2014-05-10 15:21:46 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Edit corrected:-Is that any better though than a CN Scorpion fitting a gecko and two hammerheads and a hobgoblin? Or 3 Ogres?
I imagine if you can always pick your targets for your damage strengths.

Hmm looks like the CN scorpion is the more balanced ship with many more potential roles.


The new rattle will have just about 50% more DPS, and the slots to apply it. SNI's tend to be overtanked, as they can't improve their damage application past a certain point. (And they have trouble cresting 1000 DPS - with drones - when cruise fit.)

I loved my SNI when I was just starting out missioning, and I still use it as a heavily tanked high-sec transport (300K+ EHP & a microjump drive, with T2 fittings), but it's not exactly a missioning or PVP powerhouse.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2479 - 2014-05-10 15:38:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Edit corrected:-Is that any better though than a CN Scorpion fitting a gecko and two hammerheads and a hobgoblin? Or 3 Ogres?
I imagine if you can always pick your targets for your damage strengths.

Hmm looks like the CN scorpion is the more balanced ship with many more potential roles.


The new rattle will have just about 50% more DPS, and the slots to apply it. SNI's tend to be overtanked, as they can't improve their damage application past a certain point. (And they have trouble cresting 1000 DPS - with drones - when cruise fit.)

I loved my SNI when I was just starting out missioning, and I still use it as a heavily tanked high-sec transport (300K+ EHP & a microjump drive, with T2 fittings), but it's not exactly a missioning or PVP powerhouse.


Yes, It will do not quite as much damage as the rattlesnake, but considering all drones except the gecko will be buffed in the summer, the difference when both use the drones they can fit, will be very little, or even advantage scorpion, when one considers that the scorpion can hit for the resistance hole of the target for full damage. The rattlesnake cannot.
Faster firing missiles also means less wasted shot time(faster cycle gets on next target quicker) so better real damage when there is more than one target.


Anyway this is not a praise the scorpion thread, it is about getting the rattlesnake to be a worthwhile alternative.
At the moment as a pirate ship, it fails.
As an EFT warriors fit and gankers target it is a straight up win.

Not a ringing recommendation.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2480 - 2014-05-10 16:06:48 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Yes, It will do not quite as much damage as the rattlesnake, but considering all drones except the gecko will be buffed in the summer, the difference when both use the drones they can fit, will be very little, or even advantage scorpion, when one considers that the scorpion can hit for the resistance hole of the target for full damage. The rattlesnake cannot.

Anyway this is not a praise the scorpion thread, it is about getting the rattlesnake to be a worthwhile alternative.
At the moment as a pirate ship, it fails.
As an EFT warriors fit and gankers target it is a straight up win.

Not a ringing recommendation.


40-50% additional damage is not a quite. That is quite a lot.

PVE wise, thermal/kinetic cover the primary or secondary resist hole for everything. If they gave it EM/Explosive, now that would be a different story. Big smile PVP wise, you have the option of Gecko's for rainbow damage, or using Amarr/Minmatar drones, should your opponent be completely overtanked in Therm/Kin.

I don't EFT warrior, but I have flown a TFI. This thing is a TFI which can actually be tanked without spending silly money on it. (With slightly lower DPS, admittedly.)

I do seem to recall you saying that you do WH PVE. I probably wouldn't use this in a WH, but I've never considered the Rattler ideal for that purpose, anyway.