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[Kronos] Phoenix and Citadel Missiles

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Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#181 - 2014-05-10 08:46:06 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Trinkets Friendly research laboratories has conducted research on Battleships versus Frigates using cruise missiles. The two contenders are the Raven and Typhoon.

The Typhoon gets a hull-based explosion velocity bonus. The Raven get some naff, useless missile velocity bonus.
The Typhoon can armour tank (if it wants) and can fit twin TP's. The Raven can't really armour tank, so it can't really fit a spare EWAR mod without being a complete joke at tanking.
Both can triple rigor rig and use Precisions, and attain a explosion radius of ~120m. The Typhoon gets a much more handy explosion velocity and can pump the enemy sig up 90% with twin TP's.

The actual performance of these two BS is starkly different. Sure, the Raven's missiles hit sooner, but the DPS is the same on paper, so who cares if your missiles hit sooner? Like, seriously, irrelevant. It's not like alpha with a turret.

The Typhoon can effectively alpha frigates (yes, including MWDing low-sig armour frigs) whereas the Raven has trouble killing anything. This is tested and proven.

Clearly the difference is that the Typhoon has a hull bonus on explosive velocity and can rig for explosion radius. The Raven can only do one of these, and it is insufficient.

The Phoenix is in the same position as the Raven. Sure, you can triple T2 rigor fit it (for 1.5 bilLOLions), but that just fixes half the problem.

Ergo, the solution is to give the Phoenix a explosion velocity bonus to the hull. Screw fast missiles.

Doesn't the Raven move slightly faster and due to the missile velocity, able to fire at longer range? Not that either of those two points would have much of an impact anyway, I pretty much agree with your statement.


Actually the phoon is faster than the Raven, you can armor tank the phoon with rigs and plates and still be faster.



Question... why does the Caldari ships have lower scan res than their Mimatar counterparts? Isn't lore wise, Caldari suppose to be second only to Jove in technology. So you factor in lower base scan res with the flight time of missiles- it gimps the application of dps a bit.
And yes, i found out that the Phoon is potentially a much better torp boat than the Raven... Nice balance CCP.


Yeah its kinda ridiculous isnt it? Somewhere in game caldari pilots touched devs in their private places and if caldari isnt getting a nerf, then they get a buff with a nerf. All the while minmatar dread gets a huge make over to become darn near the best dread and their missile ships become the best missile boats in game over the missile race...

Funny how that works.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#182 - 2014-05-10 09:02:16 UTC
Welcome to Eve Online, where the missile race is universally outclassed in missile combat.

Cases in point, Malediction vs. Crow, Drake vs. Cyclone, Raven vs. Typhoon, Phoenix vs. Citadel Torpedo Battery. Even the Caracal isn't as good nowadays as it used to be, what with RLML changes and other medium-sized missile systems being pretty crap, and Scythe Fleet Issue being in the game.
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2014-05-10 09:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Roguehellhound
Hagika wrote:
Roguehellhound wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Trinkets friend wrote:
Trinkets Friendly research laboratories has conducted research on Battleships versus Frigates using cruise missiles. The two contenders are the Raven and Typhoon.

The Typhoon gets a hull-based explosion velocity bonus. The Raven get some naff, useless missile velocity bonus.
The Typhoon can armour tank (if it wants) and can fit twin TP's. The Raven can't really armour tank, so it can't really fit a spare EWAR mod without being a complete joke at tanking.
Both can triple rigor rig and use Precisions, and attain a explosion radius of ~120m. The Typhoon gets a much more handy explosion velocity and can pump the enemy sig up 90% with twin TP's.

The actual performance of these two BS is starkly different. Sure, the Raven's missiles hit sooner, but the DPS is the same on paper, so who cares if your missiles hit sooner? Like, seriously, irrelevant. It's not like alpha with a turret.

The Typhoon can effectively alpha frigates (yes, including MWDing low-sig armour frigs) whereas the Raven has trouble killing anything. This is tested and proven.

Clearly the difference is that the Typhoon has a hull bonus on explosive velocity and can rig for explosion radius. The Raven can only do one of these, and it is insufficient.

The Phoenix is in the same position as the Raven. Sure, you can triple T2 rigor fit it (for 1.5 bilLOLions), but that just fixes half the problem.

Ergo, the solution is to give the Phoenix a explosion velocity bonus to the hull. Screw fast missiles.

Doesn't the Raven move slightly faster and due to the missile velocity, able to fire at longer range? Not that either of those two points would have much of an impact anyway, I pretty much agree with your statement.


Actually the phoon is faster than the Raven, you can armor tank the phoon with rigs and plates and still be faster.



Question... why does the Caldari ships have lower scan res than their Mimatar counterparts? Isn't lore wise, Caldari suppose to be second only to Jove in technology. So you factor in lower base scan res with the flight time of missiles- it gimps the application of dps a bit.
And yes, i found out that the Phoon is potentially a much better torp boat than the Raven... Nice balance CCP.


Yeah its kinda ridiculous isnt it? Somewhere in game caldari pilots touched devs in their private places and if caldari isnt getting a nerf, then they get a buff with a nerf. All the while minmatar dread gets a huge make over to become darn near the best dread and their missile ships become the best missile boats in game over the missile race...

Funny how that works.


also throw in better active shield tanking ships for the matar-i have a fully specc'ed out wimatar toon for a reason but current one im posting with that is barely used for anything asides occasional pvp and ratting.

It seems as if the caldari gets the short end of the stick by a large margin. Granted the FEW ships that was worthy of constant use (tengus, old drake with old HML's, and old ewar) were nerfed to some degree.
I guess the fact that the devs hated how Caldari rules supreme in pve was what helped fuel the nerfs too-was too easy.

Remember back than when they stated "missiles caused too much server load issues" and tweaked them(ended up nerfing the missiles to a degree) yet here we are with the heavy prevalence of drones which are currently a powerful pvp/pve tool.

Now im not saying they are biased its just seems like they are adding small patches to a leaking dam. all these token buffs/adjustments just makes it even more apparent how the missile mechanics are a train wreck.
BiggestT
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#184 - 2014-05-10 11:37:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie you are exactly like a bad boyfriend!

Promising us amazing things at fanfest...

Then go and pull this sh*t with explo radius??

I mean come on. The current phoenix is actually better than this (except for structures bashing *yawn*), why did you even bother?

Bad!

Sad!

Bad!

Evil
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#185 - 2014-05-10 13:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
To be honest the whole explosion radius thing is really contrived; a missile hits a stationary target head on, in the face, what do you think will happen?...

(Ok, I suppose you could argue 50% of the blast is radiated away, unless of course it's a 'directed' warhead...)

Really wish the missile system proposed 10 years ago had actually come off (large missiles, very low agility at launch, difficulty hitting manoeuvring, i.e. agile, targets up close)



Edit: for reference to the above, the '2nd' attempt at a missile system (1st being release): http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=79439 (see TomB's comments on 'Big end note')

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#186 - 2014-05-10 16:36:47 UTC
They say the reason why they nerfed the exposion radius is due to the missiles potentially doing to much damage to sub caps.

I never understood that if this is true why not add a variable that hard codes a damage reduction to sub caps...

something like:

1 = bs (75% max damage)
2 = bc (50% max damage)
3 = cruiser (35% max damage)
4= desi/frig (20% max damage)


what this means is even in perfect conditions you are only doing max 75% damage to a bs.

This will allow CCP to bring the ex radius to something reasonable and remove the silly super cap speed tanking ability.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2014-05-10 16:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Ok in order to do the math on this I built my own spreadsheet and it's not exactly lining up with third party damage calculators so I was wondering if someone could check me out. What I have found is that the ROF increase still winds up to be a slight DPS increase even if you only fit one bay loading accelerator, and fitting a rigor and a flare along with the bay loading accelerator and having guided missile precision trained to 5 allows hitting a ship with 2000 sig radius for more damage than currently while it's moving at a very good clip. Now for the fact that carriers with massive links from Lokis and Ragnaroks can get down to 1900 sig radius causes some DPS decrease yes, but the new Phoenix will still hit them very hard, and this is against a fleet that has put every egg into countering Phoenixes. So they can be countered but not very effectively.

Is anyone else coming up with this? Basically, the buff really is not a DPS increase so much as it is a tank increase, as damage type increase, and, with changes to how Phoenixes are fit, a damage application increase. It really isn't a DPS nerf though. Also, note with the explosion velocity buff the flare rigs actually have some merit now.

So the strength of the Phoenix will still not be in its DPS though it will deliver dread level damage, but rather the damage will be very consistent and high at long range, and it will be a tank monster, and it will enjoy the capacitor benefits that the Nag has. Downsides will pretty much only be firewalls, and since Phoenixes will likely stay supplementary and not actually build a fleet doctrine around them, an enemy bringing firewall capability in order to counter a 20-ship dread fleet with 2 or 3 Phoenixes in it will be a less likely option for enemy fleets. Rather the 2 or 3 Phoenixes can be a valuable asset to that fleet in ranging targets beyond turret optimals.

Also, if this is correct, then an additional recommendation to the devs would be to add a little CPU to facilitate fitting.

I'd love to hear if anyone else can confirm what I came up with.
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
#188 - 2014-05-10 17:40:02 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Let me know what you think.

First, let me thank you for asking our opinions rather than just shoving a change down our throats like with the reprocessing nerf.



Standard CCP boilerplate, doesn't mean a thing.

They're going to shove it down your throat like a fluffer @ a porn star convention.


250+ pages of Rapid Light Missile opinions, still ****** responses from Devs.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2014-05-10 17:46:19 UTC
CW Itovuo wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Let me know what you think.

First, let me thank you for asking our opinions rather than just shoving a change down our throats like with the reprocessing nerf.



Standard CCP boilerplate, doesn't mean a thing.

They're going to shove it down your throat like a fluffer @ a **** star convention.


250+ pages of Rapid Light Missile opinions, still ****** responses from Devs.


Thanks for all the valuable input.

Please stop playing Eve.
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#190 - 2014-05-10 20:50:54 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
CW Itovuo wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Let me know what you think.

First, let me thank you for asking our opinions rather than just shoving a change down our throats like with the reprocessing nerf.



Standard CCP boilerplate, doesn't mean a thing.

They're going to shove it down your throat like a fluffer @ a **** star convention.


250+ pages of Rapid Light Missile opinions, still ****** responses from Devs.


Thanks for all the valuable input.

Please stop playing Eve.


unlike you, he has a point
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#191 - 2014-05-10 21:30:25 UTC
The truly stupid part in this buff, it wasnt the phoenix tank that was the problem. It was the capital missile system and the craptastic application of damage with the phoenix that made it the worst dread.

So what does CCP do? Buff the tank, slightly buff the ship but made the application of damage which was the real problem even worse.

This truly shows just how disconnected they are from they missile mechanics and caldari line.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#192 - 2014-05-10 21:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#193 - 2014-05-10 22:59:13 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.



Nice to see someone else who knows the nerf is a load of crap.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2014-05-10 23:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Daenika wrote:
Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.


Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix. The other thing that you are saying is that the Phoenix was crap against sub caps before, and it's crap against sub caps now, so there's really no change in its anti-sub cap performance. So increased DPS against caps, including ones that are moving faster than before, plus tank, and damage type selection. So basically, you're saying the Phoenix has been buffed. Further, you're contradicting, as I did, the legion of posters above who whined about Archons with skirmish links.

Don't get me wrong, I think the explosion radius on torps will be extreme. However, I appreciate you confirming that the ship has been buffed and will do fine against pretty much any cap regardless of links and Titan support.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#195 - 2014-05-10 23:19:53 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
To be honest the whole explosion radius thing is really contrived; a missile hits a stationary target head on, in the face, what do you think will happen?...

(Ok, I suppose you could argue 50% of the blast is radiated away, unless of course it's a 'directed' warhead...)

Really wish the missile system proposed 10 years ago had actually come off (large missiles, very low agility at launch, difficulty hitting manoeuvring, i.e. agile, targets up close)



Edit: for reference to the above, the '2nd' attempt at a missile system (1st being release): http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=79439 (see TomB's comments on 'Big end note')


I'm not really sure I understand what I'm looking at in those old forum notes.

Obviously several new mechanics and missile systems have been introduced since then not to mention the "kestrel with cruise launchers" is by todays standards patently ridiculous.

It's really not a matter of the ammo being fired as it is the mechanics behind it. Although it would be nice to give missiles better stats to drive home their application of damage over fluctuating power there is a couple of salient points to consider.

1. Missiles cannot be tanked in any kind of falloff range. If you're in range you're taking damage.

2. The only ways to buff missile damage in a practical sense is to either apply webs and/or TP. TP have very long range while webs not so much. Turrets can fight while running away but for missiles the faster you run the faster your target moves to catch up and by association the less dps you apply on the way in.

Missiles as a platform are a fleet level weapon and are designed to be used in conjuntion with both TP and webs which conveniently enough are available on bonused EWAR ships for minmatar (who otherwise generally lack application bonuses on missiles with the exception being typhoon [disclaimer, while web provides a greater net multiplier to damage a TP phoon is more effective than a raven with TPs especially on smaller targets.])

Caldari we hold as having large EHP values and missiles as a weapon platform giving caldari an edge in shield based attrition fleet models, while minmatar by comparison are better for using alpha to crack enemies and push them away.
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2014-05-10 23:25:59 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.


Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix. The other thing that you are saying is that the Phoenix was crap against sub caps before, and it's crap against sub caps now, so there's really no change in its anti-sub cap performance. So increased DPS against caps, including ones that are moving faster than before, plus tank, and damage type selection. So basically, you're saying the Phoenix has been buffed. Further, you're contradicting, as I did, the legion of posters above who whined about Archons with skirmish links.

Don't get me wrong, I think the explosion radius on torps will be extreme. However, I appreciate you confirming that the ship has been buffed and will do fine against pretty much any cap regardless of links and Titan support.


a piece of turd is recolored to look better... is still a piece of turd.
i think you are missing his point of his post- theres a double standards in play here.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#197 - 2014-05-10 23:41:27 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix.
Everything smaller than 2000 is taking less damage than before (assuming perfect skills). Yes caps all fall over that line but it comes at the cost of no longer even touching subcaps. Unless the goal is for all dreads not to touch subcaps that's bad.

Also, seeing a triage carrier sig tank your 'buffed' weapons is rather upsetting. It also means more reloads on the reloadiest of dreads.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2014-05-10 23:41:32 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Daenika wrote:
Ok, so the new stats are going to have Citadel Cruise at 2000m Explosion Radius and 40m/s Explosion Velocity, and the Citadel Torps at 3000m and 35m/s respectively.

Now, please explain why it's totally cool for a blaster Moros to apply nearly 100% DPS to a sufficiently webbed and painted battleship (and remember, 100% DPS for a turret ship is ~103% of paper DPS), but a Torp Phoenix should never do more than ~35% DPS to a battleship? And note, that's assuming a battleship with 400 sig being painted by 2 Rapiers at Recon V with Signature Focusing V and 5 Meta4 TPs each, and the Phoenix, even *after* this change, will only be doing about 85% of the DPS of a Moros to start with (and that's including the RoF buff).

Also, part of the problem I see is that a missile dread really only has maybe 2-3 modules to put in its low slots: Ballistic Control Systems, a Damage Control, and maybe a Signal Amplifier instead of using a SeBo (grossly inferior, though). 5 BCSes are functionally useless, and even the 4th one is only at 4.24% potency (a 0.53% DPS increase if using faction BCSes).

Edit: ok, maybe some cap relays, since they apparently aren't allowed to use their rigs for anything but Rigor.

When are those missile TC/TE modules coming?

And when are you devs going to realize that the Sig/ExRad cap on missile damage is flat ridiculous? If a turret ship can web and paint a target and do 100% damage, why can't a missile ship?

Edit 2: Also, apparently with maximum skills and 1.5b in Rigor rigs (two T2, one T1), a Phoenix can do 85% DPS to a stationary 400sig Battleship being painted by 10 fully hull-bonused and skilled meta4 TPs. A Moros can do about 99% of paper DPS with 2 webs and 2 unbonused painters on a moving battleship, provided it's not too close, and 103% of paper DPS against a stationary one with NO painters at all.

Edit 3: On a side note, a Torp Phoenix's maximum DPS against an unpainted stationary battleship (and below) decreased by roughly 29% due to this change, including the RoF buff. In fact, any target with a sig radius less than 1500 (or 816 with 2 Rigor II and 1 Rigor I rigs) sees the same loss of DPS from this change, and possibly higher depending on skills and rigs.


Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix. The other thing that you are saying is that the Phoenix was crap against sub caps before, and it's crap against sub caps now, so there's really no change in its anti-sub cap performance. So increased DPS against caps, including ones that are moving faster than before, plus tank, and damage type selection. So basically, you're saying the Phoenix has been buffed. Further, you're contradicting, as I did, the legion of posters above who whined about Archons with skirmish links.

Don't get me wrong, I think the explosion radius on torps will be extreme. However, I appreciate you confirming that the ship has been buffed and will do fine against pretty much any cap regardless of links and Titan support.


a piece of turd is recolored to look better... is still a piece of turd.
i think you are missing his point of his post- theres a double standards in play here.


And I am going to infer that you're going to define the Phoenix as a piece of crap until it blips sub caps like any other dread. That, however, is your own arbitrary standard. The Phoenix will be the tankiest dread in the game, will have solid all around DPS against capitals and structures, will have the best DPS at range, will have damage type selection (shared with Nagalfar but superior to Moros and Rev), and will have superior capacitor management (shared with Nagalfar but superior to Moros and Rev). It's downside will be inferior performance against sub caps. This is far from a piece of crap. It means the Phoenix will not compose blap fleets, and it will likely not be used as a centerpiece. Rather it will have unique damage application that will prove an asset to capital fleets in a number of situations and otherwise be a basic functional dread.

This is a modest buff to the ship that makes it better. I personally hope they up the CPU a bit and set the torpedo explosion radius at 2500. However, regardless of this, the ship is receiving a welcome buff and it is considerably more viable in a number of situations.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#199 - 2014-05-10 23:48:29 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Rather it will have unique damage application that will prove an asset to capital fleets in a number of situations and otherwise be a basic functional dread.

I once thought as you do. But yes, it's the tankiest dread by far before the change and is only getting heavier.

They had to make freaking towers bigger for this change if you hadn't noticed.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2014-05-10 23:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Ok, so basically what you are saying, other than indirectly that you have personality problems, is that any ships with sig radius greater than 1500 (basically any capital, regardless of skirmish links and Ragnaroks) will receive increased DPS from a Phoenix.
Everything smaller than 2000 is taking less damage than before (assuming perfect skills). Yes caps all fall over that line but it comes at the cost of no longer even touching subcaps. Unless the goal is for all dreads not to touch subcaps that's bad.

Also, seeing a triage carrier sig tank your 'buffed' weapons is rather upsetting. It also means more reloads on the reloadiest of dreads.


Ok by my math, the new Phoenix with one T1 Rigor, one T1 Bay Loading Accelerator, and one T1 Flare, and a pilot with perfect skills, will do less than maximum damage at around 2075 sig radius to a ship that is moving below the speed tank threshold. However, it will still out DPS the current Phoenix using kinetic damage down to about 1950 sig radius. Not many triage carriers are going to get down to 1950 sig radius. And this will be with with any damage type, not just kinetic. Further, the current Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with a 1950 sig radius if it goes 85 m/s, but the new Phoenix will start to lose damage against a ship with 1950 sig radius at about 120 m/s. So I'm sorry, all the crap about triage carriers sig tanking and speed tanking a Phoenix is really just bullshit. Also, I have not considered implants in any of this, so an implanted pilot should be able to hit ANY capital ship for more damage than currently, Ragnarok on field or not. If they take my recommendation and lower the torpedo explosion radius to 2500, even max skirmish links and a Ragnarok won't be able to hinder a Phoenix.

Keep in mind that this damage will never vary at all and will be exactly the same whether the ship is 500 meters away or 60 km away. I find it hard to believe that people seem to think that range doesn't count for anything.

My response to the guy above basically hinged around his thinking the Phoenix was crap unless it can wreck battleships. So you returning to this delusional argument about Phoenixes getting sig tanked by triage carriers is completely irrelevant to the point he was making or the point I was making.