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Dev Blog: CSM 9 Results!

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Author
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#181 - 2014-05-09 23:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
CCP,

Unless the reduction in votes cast this year is mirrored by a reduction in player subscriptions, I’m not convinced that it’s anything to be terribly concerned about.

1) Low turnout may simply mean your customers aren’t particularly upset. Negative emotions are often the most effective way to get people to the polls. Fewer people voting could well mean fewer strong negative emotions swimming about at the moment.

2) Keep in mind that this is a game. Accordingly, for a lot of players interstellar space politics is seen as a particular type of game play, not a social obligation. Speculating about why someone didn’t vote is sorta like asking why they don’t participate in Incursions . . . “Not my gig dude, but if it turns your game crank have at it.”

3) I’m confident CCP finds the CSM a useful resource otherwise they wouldn’t continue to pay for it. I’m also confident CSM members find interstellar space politics a satisfying activity or they wouldn’t continue participating. I’m not confident that getting more players to vote in the CSM election will change the situation. CCP will still be getting input from 14 specific players whether 30,000 customers voted or 60,000 customers voted.

4) The most powerful customer vote is their pocket book. They either subscribe or they don’t. CSM voter participation rates won’t circumvent that.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2014-05-10 00:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
CCP

If you are really concerned with low voter turnout, give the people who voted an in game T-shirt with some (stupid, though not necessarily) logo on it, for each CSM election.

CSM 9 could have been an angry bear chewing on a truck, for example.
CSM 10 could be, I dunno, a Concord logo.

Some concept designs of popular ships, which you should already have from your artists, could also put on the shirts and further advertise custom paint jobs available for sale in the Nex Store. Promotional things that promote current events and other promotions which gets people involved and eventually spending money.

You get the idea.

Even if their candidate doesn't win, they will get something for their trouble, thus an incentive can only be positive in this regard.

They'll vote in droves just to get that cosmetic for their avatar every year.

Problem solved.

If you are serious about the system, you have to market it to players better, and no, spamming them with ads is not the way to do it.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#183 - 2014-05-10 00:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk MacGirk
Darin Vanar wrote:
CCP

If you are really concerned with low voter turnout, give the people who voted an in game T-shirt with some (stupid, though not necessarily) logo on it, for each CSM election.

CSM 9 could have been an angry bear chewing on a truck, for example.
CSM 10 could be, I dunno, a Concord logo.

Some concept designs of popular ships, which you should already have from your artists, could also put on the shirts and further advertise custom paint jobs available for sale in the Nex Store. Promotional things that promote current events and other promotions which gets people involved and eventually spending money.

You get the idea.

Even if their candidate doesn't win, they will get something for their trouble, thus an incentive can only be positive in this regard.

They'll vote in droves just to get that cosmetic for their avatar every year.

Problem solved.

If you are serious about the system, you have to market it to players better, and no, spamming them with ads is not the way to do it.


neither is giving away free stuff just to entice people who would otherwise not care, to just click a button. Unless the goal is to just come up with as many uneducated votes as possible to make the number look bigger. If they can't find the time to vote, or find the time to even know there is a vote, do we really expect they will take the time to know what or who they are voting for? Free stuff only works for votes in the real world: click vote get welfare. Not sure that should be our model.
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2014-05-10 00:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Darin Vanar
Dirk MacGirk wrote:

neither is giving away free stuff just to entice people who would otherwise not care, to just click a button. Unless the goal is to just come up with as many uneducated votes as possible to make the number look bigger. If they can't find the time to vote, or find the time to even know there is a vote, do we really expect they will take the time to know what or who they are voting for?


Think about how much of this sentence currently applies to bloc voting. I bolded the parts that I think do apply.

Uneducated voting versus bloc voting. Hmm, which is honestly worse?

If your bloc tells you to vote for their candidate, do you honestly care what they stand for other than that your bloc is telling you to vote for them? Even if you care, does it matter? It's technically your candidate. Would you say bloc voters are more educated in this regard? Less educated? Or just about the same.

Besides, just by making a person show up to an event, you are educating them. Before they click something, they have to read something. This may even lead to a choice on what they click on. And that is the basic democratic process.

Sure, some may just not appreciate the gesture all together and click on the first thing that pops up but I like to think that even a little bit of education is better than nothing. The trouble is getting the person at the voting booth more than educating them prior to them arriving at the booth.

And it goes without being said, that CCP needs to put something more tangible on the candidate selection screen than just their name. I think someone suggested earlier that a tag would work, to summarize the focus of their platform. IE, nullsec, lowsec, highsec, that kind of thing.

If you get a lot of people there, they are likely to click on something they like as opposed to something they don't, and that is the first step in an educated vote. But technically, getting them there in the first place, is the first. :)

The most important thing in a democracy is having people show up. There is technically no wrong choice in the democratic process. It doesn't matter how educated you are. Without turnout, the democratic process doesn't work and is easily undermined by bloc voting. As we see has happened here..

Real democracy (as in real life) is very much dependant on quantity versus quality of voters. Otherwise it is easily undermined. That is why, in real elections, the most important thing usually is not about who won, but voter turnout.

Voters who care about one thing, must be balanced against those who don't. Or don't care about anything. Otherwise, the biggest party always wins.
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm.
Out of the Blue.
#185 - 2014-05-10 00:53:18 UTC
Like CCP will give voters as percentage of eligible voters. CCP doesn't want people to know that subs are dropping or stagnating. Previous accidental revelations were just that, accidental.

Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#186 - 2014-05-10 01:15:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Greater Roadrunner wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


you seem to think that the csm is a tool for pushing personal agendas. it's not.


If there is no reason to vote then there should be no vote.


there is a reason to vote, that reason isn't to push personal agendas though.


Of course it is used to push personal agendas, or at least, group advantages.


and people really want people like this voting?

still waiting david

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#187 - 2014-05-10 01:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk MacGirk
Darin Vanar wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:

neither is giving away free stuff just to entice people who would otherwise not care, to just click a button. Unless the goal is to just come up with as many uneducated votes as possible to make the number look bigger. If they can't find the time to vote, or find the time to even know there is a vote, do we really expect they will take the time to know what or who they are voting for?


Think about how much of this sentence currently applies to bloc voting. I bolded the parts that I think do apply.



Voters who care about one thing, must be balanced against those who don't. Or don't care about anything. Otherwise, the biggest party always wins.



Damn, lost everything I wrote in this. Oh well, no real loss.

Cut to it: what is your goal? Just more voters or getting a better CSM?

If we want even more brain dead voters than the ones being led around like sheep, then go for it. At least the sheep have shepherds. I'm just not keen on driving up numbers for the sake of numbers. I'd really rather make an effort at education. Voter drives in minority neighborhoods work in the real world because there are typically only 2 parties to choose from. Even the ignorant can select one line. Here they have up to 14 choices out of 25-30 candidates. I'm not sure paying for "just vote anyone" will result in a better CSM with better representation across underrepresented parts of space. But whatever, why should the game be any different than real life.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#188 - 2014-05-10 01:29:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Apparently this is rocket science level V.

If you actually read the thread carefully from the beginning and sound the big words out you will see that a big concern is that a lot of players aren't aware that the CSM process even exists. Wouldn't giving away free stuff alleviate most of that concern? Perhaps we can compare the number of people who voted in the election to the number of people who got their free Gecko drones?
Yes, I get that genius. Do you not understand that Voting for a prize != Engagement? Voting for a prize would get more votes, certainly, but it would undermine the fundamental reason for the CSM, since voting at random just for a prize would be far far worse than not voting.


I plainly stated earlier that voting for a prize equals turnout and you hope the result is that some of those people end up engaged in the process.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#189 - 2014-05-10 01:29:30 UTC
Quote:
Eligible voters had cast 31,294 votes, meaning that the number of votes cast this year is significantly lower than for CSM 8. We feel that this is due to a lack of awareness about the CSM’s form and function within the community, and we will be working actively with CSM9 to reach a broader audience over the coming term.


Nope. I joined Eve after the CSM 7 elections, so CSM 8 was the first election I was eligible for and I voted with all of my accounts. Then I realized over the course of the last year how much a joke the CSM is and decided to boycott this election with all my accounts. I refuse to give legitimacy to the process of CCP getting a free PR department that even CCP holds in disgust (summit minutes, anyone?). If the CSM ever goes back to being advocates for the playerbase instead just a bunch of CCP brown nosers and lap dogs, I'll consider voting again, but not until then.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#190 - 2014-05-10 01:41:30 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Quote:
Eligible voters had cast 31,294 votes, meaning that the number of votes cast this year is significantly lower than for CSM 8. We feel that this is due to a lack of awareness about the CSM’s form and function within the community, and we will be working actively with CSM9 to reach a broader audience over the coming term.


Nope. I joined Eve after the CSM 7 elections, so CSM 8 was the first election I was eligible for and I voted with all of my accounts. Then I realized over the course of the last year how much a joke the CSM is and decided to boycott this election with all my accounts. I refuse to give legitimacy to the process of CCP getting a free PR department that even CCP holds in disgust (summit minutes, anyone?). If the CSM ever goes back to being advocates for the playerbase instead just a bunch of CCP brown nosers and lap dogs, I'll consider voting again, but not until then.


You sir, are exactly the kind of voter CCP should be targeting. Those who do not see the value in the CSM because its value is hidden behind NDA and lack of communication.

Let's increase voter turnout with people like this. Not just buying people to come out and vote for whomever for the sake of a raw number.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#191 - 2014-05-10 02:07:33 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Quote:
Eligible voters had cast 31,294 votes, meaning that the number of votes cast this year is significantly lower than for CSM 8. We feel that this is due to a lack of awareness about the CSM’s form and function within the community, and we will be working actively with CSM9 to reach a broader audience over the coming term.


Nope. I joined Eve after the CSM 7 elections, so CSM 8 was the first election I was eligible for and I voted with all of my accounts. Then I realized over the course of the last year how much a joke the CSM is and decided to boycott this election with all my accounts. I refuse to give legitimacy to the process of CCP getting a free PR department that even CCP holds in disgust (summit minutes, anyone?). If the CSM ever goes back to being advocates for the playerbase instead just a bunch of CCP brown nosers and lap dogs, I'll consider voting again, but not until then.


You sir, are exactly the kind of voter CCP should be targeting. Those who do not see the value in the CSM because its value is hidden behind NDA and lack of communication.

Let's increase voter turnout with people like this. Not just buying people to come out and vote for whomever for the sake of a raw number.


It's more than that. Is CSM primarily there to be unpaid junior developers or to hold CCP accountable? I want the latter, but it was abundantly clear that CSM 8 was only interested in the former.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#192 - 2014-05-10 02:12:42 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Apparently this is rocket science level V.

If you actually read the thread carefully from the beginning and sound the big words out you will see that a big concern is that a lot of players aren't aware that the CSM process even exists. Wouldn't giving away free stuff alleviate most of that concern? Perhaps we can compare the number of people who voted in the election to the number of people who got their free Gecko drones?
Yes, I get that genius. Do you not understand that Voting for a prize != Engagement? Voting for a prize would get more votes, certainly, but it would undermine the fundamental reason for the CSM, since voting at random just for a prize would be far far worse than not voting.
I plainly stated earlier that voting for a prize equals turnout and you hope the result is that some of those people end up engaged in the process.
lol, how are you still not understanding that turnout by giving people prizes does nto mean people are engaged. Sure, you might get a handful of people that are, but the majority would click randomly for their prize, which would destroy the process for anyone that IS engaged. If the only thing that mattered for a vote was the raw turnout numbers, then sure, prizes would work, but that's not all that matters so it's a ridiculous idea. Like lets just destroy the CSM process yeah, and for what? A random piece of junk that's worth some peasant amount?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2014-05-10 02:18:41 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:


It's more than that. Is CSM primarily there to be unpaid junior developers or to hold CCP accountable? I want the latter, but it was abundantly clear that CSM 8 was only interested in the former.


Accountable for what, exactly?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#194 - 2014-05-10 02:19:46 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Quote:
Eligible voters had cast 31,294 votes, meaning that the number of votes cast this year is significantly lower than for CSM 8. We feel that this is due to a lack of awareness about the CSM’s form and function within the community, and we will be working actively with CSM9 to reach a broader audience over the coming term.


Nope. I joined Eve after the CSM 7 elections, so CSM 8 was the first election I was eligible for and I voted with all of my accounts. Then I realized over the course of the last year how much a joke the CSM is and decided to boycott this election with all my accounts. I refuse to give legitimacy to the process of CCP getting a free PR department that even CCP holds in disgust (summit minutes, anyone?). If the CSM ever goes back to being advocates for the playerbase instead just a bunch of CCP brown nosers and lap dogs, I'll consider voting again, but not until then.


You sir, are exactly the kind of voter CCP should be targeting. Those who do not see the value in the CSM because its value is hidden behind NDA and lack of communication.

Let's increase voter turnout with people like this. Not just buying people to come out and vote for whomever for the sake of a raw number.


It's more than that. Is CSM primarily there to be unpaid junior developers or to hold CCP accountable? I want the latter, but it was abundantly clear that CSM 8 was only interested in the former.


I would say it's neither. It is to be a sounding board. They have no role in being developers, junior or otherwise, nor do they have any authority to hold anyone accountable. They are a semi-permanent focus group with maybe a little bit of "all bark, no bite" watchdog thrown in. That is in no way to diminish its role. We the players should be happy to have that rather than just expect the "voice of the forums" to reflect our views.
stoicfaux
#195 - 2014-05-10 02:45:56 UTC
I didn't bother to vote because CCP seemed to care even less about the CSM 8 vote than normal. About the only announcement concerning the CSM election was a dev blog posted 5 days before voting closed, and that, IIRC, was right before a holiday weekend.

If CCP won't or can't put some reasonable effort in advertising CSM votes, then I see no reason to bother voting. In previous years, CCP would at least put a blurb or two in the email newletter, but this time around there wasn't even that.


And I wouldn't rely on the CSM to "get out the vote" because it's against their best interests. If you get elected via a block vote, you don't want to expand the voting pool and undermine your voting block.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-05-10 03:33:26 UTC
This may have been mentioned, but could political burnout be a partial cause for the low turnout.

I play this game A. Because it is fun, and B. It provides a nice break from all sorts of real world garbage, Partisan Politics being a big source of that garbage.

The whole CSM and a good amount of forum posting is simple Partisan Politics. Instead of Left,Right, Tea party, etc. etc. here in Eve we have various groups in Null, Low, and High Sec representing their playstyles. And just like in real life each group KNOWS what is best for Eve and has ZERO concerns that their views will screw over platstyles other than their own. Most important they all come to the forums to spout their ideology and ridicule those who see things differently. I see the same crap everyday in the comment sections of news articles.

I play Eve to get a break, not to get involved in more political BS. Find a way to eliminate the partisanship of the process and I might find a reason to become interested in voting.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#197 - 2014-05-10 05:11:12 UTC
Frankly reasons for not voting are primarily the same regardless of what you're voting, however I don't think that (unlike in RL) higher socio economical safety would turn voting %s up.
There is a case study why Nordic countries have a very high voting % compared to other in US and EU and it also seems to be reflected in this voting as well (go Finland P).

Anyway for me the biggest problem was that many of the candidates were pretty much invisible for the larger community, in previous elections the candidates have often had renown or infamy depending on who is looking but these fellows well no one except mynna didn't ring any bells what so ever.
Heck I voted for the "WH 5" because I was told that they were the candidates to vote for my alliance diplo (it's called campaigning, something that most now elected CSM guys seemed to never had heard about).

Also campaigning isn't that you write a wall of tribe on CSM subforums it's about engaging your voters and making your self seen and heard and getting other people to carry the torch while you recruit more people to carry the torch so that you can burn brighter (figuratively or literally, your pick).
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#198 - 2014-05-10 05:12:23 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:


It's more than that. Is CSM primarily there to be unpaid junior developers or to hold CCP accountable? I want the latter, but it was abundantly clear that CSM 8 was only interested in the former.


Accountable for what, exactly?

m


Warcrimes.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#199 - 2014-05-10 05:41:26 UTC
There's a few things that CCP can do to encourage voting:

1. Send out an EVE Mail letting people know that the polls are open, and a second one as a reminder 48 hours before the polls close.

2. Put a short reminder at the character selection screen, again maybe once at the time the polls open and again as a reminder just before they close.


3. Have Hilmar do a video presentation (perhaps linked to either the EVE Mail or the character screen messages) of maybe 3 minutes, explaining why people should vote. The message should direct people to the CSM candidate forum so people who might not have looked at the forums before can easily see the various candidates platforms.

This message system would be a good opportunity to explain what positive, successful changes have been made within the game as a direct result of CSM/CCP collaboration and explain how the CSM is elected to represent people's various playstyles. Obviously, make it clear that the CSM doesn't set the game design direction, but act as a sounding board to try to make sure that when CCP come up with ideas, they're going to get a good reception from the playerbase.


Or alternatively, do nothing and let us get most of our candidates on the CSM every year. That's fine too.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#200 - 2014-05-10 05:55:54 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
There's a few things that CCP can do to encourage voting:

1. Send out an EVE Mail letting people know that the polls are open, and a second one as a reminder 48 hours before the polls close.

2. Put a short reminder at the character selection screen, again maybe once at the time the polls open and again as a reminder just before they close.


3. Have Hilmar do a video presentation (perhaps linked to either the EVE Mail or the character screen messages) of maybe 3 minutes, explaining why people should vote. The message should direct people to the CSM candidate forum so people who might not have looked at the forums before can easily see the various candidates platforms.

This message system would be a good opportunity to explain what positive, successful changes have been made within the game as a direct result of CSM/CCP collaboration and explain how the CSM is elected to represent people's various playstyles. Obviously, make it clear that the CSM doesn't set the game design direction, but act as a sounding board to try to make sure that when CCP come up with ideas, they're going to get a good reception from the playerbase.


Or alternatively, do nothing and let us get most of our candidates on the CSM every year. That's fine too.


Really like the idea of a video message from Hilmar. Kind of a public service announcement/appeal to the players. Appeals never hurt

+1