Player Features and Ideas Discussion

All DRF does is to determine how fast the damage falls off due to velocity. At 5.5, velocity reductions are linear. Below that, they falloff faster. Increasing DRF above 5.5 is ineffective.

The Phoenix right now will do 130k alpha with kinetic ammo. That bonus is being removed. Maximum volley damage without BCSs should be about 85305. With 3x BCS II it will be 107810, which is exactly as it is now using anything but kinetic ammo.

Now add the reduced cycle time on the new launchers.

Applied Damage to linked, triaged Archon:

• Previous (kinetic only): alpha: 134760, dps: 11088.
• Previous (all other): alpha: 107810, dps: 8031.
• New (all types): alpha: 91852, dps: 10077.

Applied Damage to a 400m 100m/s BS:

• Previous (kinetic): alpha: 10780, dps: 887.
• Previous (other): alpha: 8624, dps: 709.
• New (all): alpha: 10062, dps: 1103.

These stats reflect the lesser application and increased RoF changes. Just like vs carrier/dreads, if you web the target (in this case it requires 67% reduction in velocity or 2 webs), you will do less damage than with the current stats. But at least in this case you can apply a TP and do significantly better damage.

In the case of a single 37% TP on the 100m/s, 400m BS...

• Previous (kinetic): alpha: 14769, dps: 1215.
• Previous (other): alpha: 11815, dps: 972.
• New (all): alpha: 13785, dps: 1512.

Honestly, I can understand why Fozzie is being so cautious. Now try it with a bonused TP from say a Vigil, Hyena, Rapier, or Huginn. One of these linked using a Domination TP overheated, you can get a 99.87% sigRad bonus per module. Now stack 3 of those. The bonus gets pretty insane. That 400m turns into 2350, and suddenly he will take a ****-tonne of damage.

Target painters are much more effective than they used to be, especially for blapping. But that doesn't fix the issue of reduced damage to linked carrier and dreads, and them being immune to EWAR when sieged/triaged.

Damage Reduction Factor. It's an attribute on missiles that affects their applied damage if the target is speed tanking. Normally it lessens the effect of speed tanking, moreso as the DRF gets smaller. A DRF of 5.5, such as on Citadel Torpedoes, has no effect at all and target speed has a linear effect on applied damage. A DRF larger than 5.5 wouldn't cause anything strange, it would simply mean that target speed would have a superlinear effect on reducing applied damage.

So what you're saying is that, for a Phoenix trying to hit subcaps, a 37% TP boosts applied DPS by 37%, and a 99.87% TP boosts applied DPS by 99.87%. Yes, that's completely true. Well, mostly true.

Using your same target on a blap-fit Moros, a 37% TP boosts applied DPS by 63% at 40km. A 99.87% TP boosts applied DPS by 119% at 40km.

TPs have always been strong when you're trying to hit targets you shouldn't be able to hit.



Actually, you don't, and in my opinion that's the only problem. Using the fits that I already have pulled up. Assuming perfect Electronic Superiority Link and cold TPs, because they do burn out fast.

Standard, faction/T2rig-fit, faction Scourge, blap Phoenix alpha:

• Against Sleepless Guardian, with Rapier support: 147,517 at any distance within range.
• Against Sleepless Guardian with Loki support: 147,517 at any distance within range.
• Against T2 AB Guardian with Rapier support: 26,567 at any distance within range.
• Against T2 AB Guardian with Loki support: 13,174 at any distance within range.

Standard, faction-fit, faction Antimatter, blap Moros alpha at the peak of the damage curve:

• Against Sleepless Guardian, with Rapier support: 64,420 on average, 93,006 maximum w/o wrecking shots, 187,262 on wrecking shots, 32,210 minimum. Peak is at ~22.3km, 95% of peak alpha extends between ~9.3km and ~34.2km.
• Against Sleepless Guardian with Loki support: 60,568 on average, 90,247 maximum w/o wrecking shots, 181,705 on wrecking shots, 30,284 minimum. Peak is at ~24.9km, 95% of peak alpha extends between ~15.4km and ~36.3km.
• Against T2 AB Guardian with Rapier support: 24,007 on average, 35,770 maximum w/o wrecking shots, 72,021 on wrecking shots 12,004 minimum. Peak is at ~57.1km, 95% of peak alpha extends between ~49.6km and ~66.4km.
• Against T2 AB Guardian with Loki support: 8,753 on average, 13,042 maximum w/o wrecking shots, 26,259 on wrecking shots, 13,129 minimum. Peak is at ~78.5km, 95% of peak alpha extends between 70km and 88.4km.

Of course a Moros with blasters out-DPSes a Phoenix quite heavily, at effective range. But the Phoenix puts out the same reliable, high, alpha at any range, be it at 500m or 50km.

First, let me thank you for asking our opinions rather than just shoving a change down our throats like with the reprocessing nerf.

I think the goal of fixing capital missiles is good, but you take one step forward and one back. In this case you increase the ExVel so the missiles aren't so easily speed tanked, but then you cripple the ExRad so they cannot do full damage even to ships of their size class.

If you're worried about cap missiles doing huge damage to subcaps, don't. A moving BS takes trivial damage from citadels and still would even without the concomitant ExRad nerf. The only way he could get blapped is if he was webbed, painted, and MWDing, and in that situation he's WEBBED, PAINTED, AND MWDING! If a webbed, painted, MWDing cruiser gets chunked by a BS torp it's okay, so why is it that if a BS in the same situation taking citadel torp fire and meets the same fate it's a problem?

Problem here is that you're assuming perfect transversal at all times against multiple Moroses, which is impossible, and that nobody's bothered bringing any 90% webs.

Just want to take this opportunity to point out that dreads and carriers very rarely are at 0 m/s in an ongoing fleet fight. Last capital fight I was involved in, my Moros was sieged and doing almost 100 m/s from a post-jump-and-siege bump. So, in an actual game situation, a phoenix would be doing a pretty horrible percentage of full damage to that Moros before these changes and after.

Caps jumping into a large fight are going to be moving. Dreads are bouncing all over the place after they enter siege. Supers will be aligned at full speed (which is more than exp velocity both before and after this change). Carriers (with sentry carriers soon to be a thing of the past) will likely also be moving as well.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the damage calculation for missiles which has led to this situation where a Phoenix is far better at blapping undocking subcaps than it can be in a fleet fight. This change will slightly nerf their ability to undock camp, no doubt. It will not be a functional capital ship in a fleet fight.

These changes remind me of PL's ill-fated attempt at making Ravens a fleet comp. "They're really good on paper..." was repeated every time the comp lost to a more traditional comp. The changes to the Raven were heralded in the same fashion as the changes to the Phoenix are being heralded right now. Eve trailers aside, Phoenixes and Ravens aren't going to be fleet comps, because of the underlying missile damage mechanics, without horribly unbalancing them in specialized settings. Unfortunately, there isn't much demand for mission running dreads so keep an eye out on the station undock.

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10/10

We do come across a broader problem: there is significant overlap between the speeds at which an Archon (which should take full damage) and a fully webbed subcap (which perhaps should not) move. If the missiles do full damage to the archon, they will mess up subcaps something fierce, assuming equal signature size. Unfortunately, linked & bonused target painters can very reasonably double the signature size of a target, taking a Rokh to 1.3k signautre. Non-bonused webs can easily take an afterburning battleship to below the speeds of an unwebbed Archon, and with that 1.3k signature from painters, all I can say is "Blap". (~75% damage application for the curious)

It might be appropriate to examine the introduction of non-linear scaling with regards to signature radius in the missile damage equation, perhaps varying according to the DRF to allow missiles to be 'tuned' against a certain minimum target size, but that's a topic for another day. An alternative would be for target painters to increase the target's signature in a non-linear manner, approaching a max sig size per class. i.e. a Battleship with MWD off could not be boosted about a 1k signature radius. This could help address issues with blap dreads in general.

I'd argue that the best middle ground would be to scale the explosion velocity up a bit to ~90 m/s and either keep the explosion radius as-is, or set it so that full dps application with max skills (but no e-war support) occurs at ~1.9k signature radius. In terms of trying to blap webbed sub-caps, the practical difference between 50 m/s and 90 m/s is minimal in a world of 90% webs, but that extra velocity will make a world of difference in applying damage to capitals.

Applying a 25% signature bloom to Siege / Triage should also be considered, since the signature will be larger (Supers / Titans) or the target will be vulnerable to painting (Carriers, Rorquals) in other cases when trying to apply damage to caps.

Both might be too much. Actually, I don't think the Rev's problem is damage, I think it's range. GIving it more damage just further homogenises the turret dreads' DPS. The Rev's focus should be damage projection, but currently the Moros is greatly superior at this. Boost Rev optimal, nerf Moros/Naglfar optimal and falloff. Then see where we are.

I see absolutely no reason for a change to the EHP, tank stats, or damage amounts of Capitals to go along with changes in signature radius.

1. EHP and tank don't matter: the idea is, basically everything in range can always hit capitals with 100% damage all the time except in special circumstances. If you increased Dreadnought and Carrier signature radius to 1 million kilometers, you wouldn't notice a huge difference in the amount of damage they take... so just because you're increasing the sig radius of capitals doesn't mean there's any kind of good excuse to change the raw stats of these ships.

2. Changing the amount of damage capitals deal is even more dangerous territory. It affects the balance in usefulness between subcapitals and capitals when shooting structures, the amount of time it takes to kill structures with capitals, the difficulty of killing capitals with other capitals, and of course the amount of damage you can do to subcapitals with capital ships. There is no good reason to mess with all this right now.