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The fallacy of long term w-space habitation as stated by CCP

First post
Author
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-12-03 01:15:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.


In this particular situation, ensuring that w-space starbase logistics would be "balanced" after this change would first require us to have a long discussion about how difficult w-space logistics should be in the first place, which would likely end up spilling across into a lot of other areas of w-space mechanics. Given how ingenious and adaptable w-space dwellers have proved to be in the past, and how minor this adjustment seemed when compared to the difficulties of setting up shop in w-space in the first place, we figured that the majority of these players would simply roll with the changes regardless, so we postponed the big balancing discussion until we have time to look at it properly, and implemented the starbase changes as-is in the meantime.



Obviously we're not in a position to make authoritative statements about things that will occur in the future (due to a lack of time-travel technology), but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.

All I can say is that as far as I am concerned, WH mechanics work good. Non-static paths in/out, unknown who your neighbors are/will be, always that "what's behind the next door" and the story arc of what/who the sleepers, etc., were actually.

Good Job on WH's.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Catlos JeminJees
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2011-12-03 01:35:23 UTC
Turkatron wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.

Open up existing pos features such as moon mining. I'm not for making it as good or better than nullsec highends but it would encourage more people to populate wspace. Making some wh systems more profitable than others through propagation of different moon mins would encourage player driven content (pvp).





I think you didnt read the part where WH space was never ment to be Populated it was ment to be a get in get out type deal.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-12-03 01:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Catlos JeminJees wrote:
I think you didnt read the part where WH space was never ment to be Populated it was ment to be a get in get out type deal.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.


You may have missed this part, which is pretty darn definitive in and of itself.... Roll

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-12-03 02:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.


In this particular situation, ensuring that w-space starbase logistics would be "balanced" after this change would first require us to have a long discussion about how difficult w-space logistics should be in the first place, which would likely end up spilling across into a lot of other areas of w-space mechanics. Given how ingenious and adaptable w-space dwellers have proved to be in the past, and how minor this adjustment seemed when compared to the difficulties of setting up shop in w-space in the first place, we figured that the majority of these players would simply roll with the changes regardless, so we postponed the big balancing discussion until we have time to look at it properly, and implemented the starbase changes as-is in the meantime.



Obviously we're not in a position to make authoritative statements about things that will occur in the future (due to a lack of time-travel technology), but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.


Thanks for replying in this thread but, how about addressing the original post and the "dinner bell" intel that the API provides in its current state? How about getting rid of all API intel gathering for w-space or sufficiently delaying updates to be essentially useless for people wanting a kill handed to them on a silver platter?

Don't ban me, bro!

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#45 - 2011-12-03 02:53:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.


In this particular situation, ensuring that w-space starbase logistics would be "balanced" after this change would first require us to have a long discussion about how difficult w-space logistics should be in the first place, which would likely end up spilling across into a lot of other areas of w-space mechanics. Given how ingenious and adaptable w-space dwellers have proved to be in the past, and how minor this adjustment seemed when compared to the difficulties of setting up shop in w-space in the first place, we figured that the majority of these players would simply roll with the changes regardless, so we postponed the big balancing discussion until we have time to look at it properly, and implemented the starbase changes as-is in the meantime.



Obviously we're not in a position to make authoritative statements about things that will occur in the future (due to a lack of time-travel technology), but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.


Heh... you made this grumpy old frontiersman smile.

We're not looking for handouts, we're not looking for you to make it easy. We just don't want you to break something you damn near got perfect out of the gate. Big smile

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Turkatron
#46 - 2011-12-03 03:50:35 UTC
Catlos JeminJees wrote:
Turkatron wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.

Open up existing pos features such as moon mining. I'm not for making it as good or better than nullsec highends but it would encourage more people to populate wspace. Making some wh systems more profitable than others through propagation of different moon mins would encourage player driven content (pvp).





I think you didnt read the part where WH space was never ment to be Populated it was ment to be a get in get out type deal.


Nope. It's just a part that's not worth paying attention too. It fails as a game mechanic with no people (read few). With so few people in wspace, it is a veritable carebear land with very little risk for great rewards. Much like incursions. Also, it was never meant to be a place where you would park a pos for a long period of time. But as anyone with any knowledge of wspace knows, the way to make lots of profit is to park a pos and cycle your static. CCP Greyscale seems to think this (non-nomadic way of wspace life) is interesting and wants to support it; in other words just because something doesn't fit the original intent, doesn't mean that it won't\shouldn't\can't be done.

Besides, what's the point of getting in and getting out if there's nothing but boring pve content that is less varied than missions and exploration.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#47 - 2011-12-03 03:59:34 UTC
Turkatron wrote:


Nope. It's just a part that's not worth paying attention too. It fails as a game mechanic with no people (read few). With so few people in wspace, it is a veritable carebear land with very little risk for great rewards. Much like incursions. Also, it was never meant to be a place where you would park a pos for a long period of time. But as anyone with any knowledge of wspace knows, the way to make lots of profit is to park a pos and cycle your static. CCP Greyscale seems to think this (non-nomadic way of wspace life) is interesting and wants to support it; in other words just because something doesn't fit the original intent, doesn't mean that it won't\shouldn't\can't be done.

Besides, what's the point of getting in and getting out if there's nothing but boring pve content that is less varied than missions and exploration.


Eh... you think nothing happens in wormholes but boring pve content?

I hope I misinterpreted that, because I haven't read something so clueless since the "nerf cloaking" threads. Please, correct me if I read that wrong.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#48 - 2011-12-03 08:18:55 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Roime wrote:
lol @ API-whiners

It was a stupid meta-game tool that should have never existed, good riddance. Wormholes don't register jumps, they are not man-built stargates.

Read again

Quote:
"it's not supposed to be easy"


and again until you understand.

And then once more.


- Roime


I advocate a complete removal of API intel from w-space. Read it again. As it stands now, API intel for w-space is a dinner bell as it shows NPC kills but not jumps. In essence, someone with a connecting wh to a system could sit on their ass doing whatever they want making periodic API calls to find out when a WH goes active and the active members are vulnerable. This is outright unacceptable.


Sorry man, my bad, read poorly :S

You are absolutely correct.

.

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#49 - 2011-12-03 08:22:42 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
You started out with a lot of "whine" at the beginning of the OP so I was going to just tell you to shut the **** up...but then I actually read your whole post.

I agree...

+1


I failed to read the whole post properly, and yes, I agree as well.

.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-12-03 08:37:51 UTC
It's probably a combination of the sleep meds I'm on + your epic mustache but I agree with everything you said.

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#51 - 2011-12-03 09:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleia O'Sinnor
I completely approve what the OP says!

If you, CCP, remove the jump API now why the hell do it in favor of gankers? There's still precious data available for anyone who likes to see if a w-space system is active. Don't give attacker an edge over the defenders. Be fair and don't hand out advantages for only one side.

I am dwelling a wormhole for quite some time and used the jumps API for security and yes I want it back. However I can adapt to it missing, won't whine and won't leave my fun behind.

I really like w-space, it's not perfect, but it's hell of a fun to be in a w-sapce system. Apocryphe is to date the best expansion ever.

EDIT: And thanks for putting this up in the forums with another thread and a sound explanation, I wanted to get this rolling myself.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-12-03 10:51:00 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
CCP Greyscal wrote:
Quote:

- I appreciate that this changes the status quo for wormhole towers, but running long-term towers in wormholes has never been a "supported feature", in the sense that we haven't explicitly designed for it in either positive or negative ways. The existence of long-term occupation of WH systems by players is an emergent behavior of the system, that we very much applaud, but don't have an explicit design policy for. ...


.....

.....
So, stop using this BS excuse of short term w-space habitation as justification to continually f.uck us, mmm'kay?

you are american aren't you?

i heard they like to dry their cats in microwave ovens. And make petitions "wtf is happened with my cat???" Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-12-03 14:08:28 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
CCP Greyscal wrote:
Quote:

- I appreciate that this changes the status quo for wormhole towers, but running long-term towers in wormholes has never been a "supported feature", in the sense that we haven't explicitly designed for it in either positive or negative ways. The existence of long-term occupation of WH systems by players is an emergent behavior of the system, that we very much applaud, but don't have an explicit design policy for. ...


.....

.....
So, stop using this BS excuse of short term w-space habitation as justification to continually f.uck us, mmm'kay?

you are american aren't you?

i heard they like to dry their cats in microwave ovens. And make petitions "wtf is happened with my cat???" Cool


Drink some more vodka, comrade!

Don't ban me, bro!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#54 - 2011-12-03 16:01:11 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
CCP Greyscal wrote:
Quote:

- I appreciate that this changes the status quo for wormhole towers, but running long-term towers in wormholes has never been a "supported feature", in the sense that we haven't explicitly designed for it in either positive or negative ways. The existence of long-term occupation of WH systems by players is an emergent behavior of the system, that we very much applaud, but don't have an explicit design policy for. ...


.....

.....
So, stop using this BS excuse of short term w-space habitation as justification to continually f.uck us, mmm'kay?

you are american aren't you?

i heard they like to dry their cats in microwave ovens. And make petitions "wtf is happened with my cat???" Cool



Sort of. Americans like to vote for the guys with the best haircut or speech and then wonder why their country is gone to crap. That's a more accurate description.


And the trend lately is to use laws and rules to get an advantage for themselves and trying to screw others at the same time. From the fat cat banksters to the welfare recipient, it's "Gimme gimme gimme! ... and take from someone else and keep them from getting theirs!!!!1!!!eleven". So if it was said that most of the people in the forums sitting around saying "CCP shoud (insert how CCP should boost MY playstyle here at the expense of somebody elses style)" are Americans, it would be accurate, but only because using "government" (CCP in this case) as a personal tool to get ahead and get over on others is now the new "American Way".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#55 - 2011-12-03 16:08:30 UTC
boo hoo; get out.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2011-12-03 16:14:35 UTC
Wait, is this thread seriously whining about people staying in wormholes and putting up POSs?

Who cares, let people play this game the way they want to play it. If a corp wants to get into Wspace and camp out until that ***** collapses so be it...go in there and take them out if you don't like it. Some of the best fights I have ever gotten in this game have been in and around wormholes, they are one of the most dynamic and interesting parts of EVE.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-12-03 16:20:48 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:
Wait, is this thread seriously whining about people staying in wormholes and putting up POSs?

Who cares, let people play this game the way they want to play it. If a corp wants to get into Wspace and camp out until that ***** collapses so be it...go in there and take them out if you don't like it. Some of the best fights I have ever gotten in this game have been in and around wormholes, they are one of the most dynamic and interesting parts of EVE.


In a way yes. It's more about the absurd intel available from API now for w-space. That intel shows when NPC are being killed but no longer shows jumps into the system. It's what I refer to as dinner bell intel since that is all that the intel is good for....check api, see that someone is farming and then go in for the kill. Of course, it's not the lack of intel that burns my ass here. It's the blatant skew of intel. Honestly, I'd rather see no intel from api coming from wormholes. But, that's just me.

The last few folks seem to believe that my nationality has something to do with this when, in fact, it does not. I'm sure if nullsec had CCP hang a bell around their necks the way they did with wormhole inhabitants they'd be here complaining about it as well.

Don't ban me, bro!

Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2011-12-03 16:27:47 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Lil Nippy wrote:
Wait, is this thread seriously whining about people staying in wormholes and putting up POSs?

Who cares, let people play this game the way they want to play it. If a corp wants to get into Wspace and camp out until that ***** collapses so be it...go in there and take them out if you don't like it. Some of the best fights I have ever gotten in this game have been in and around wormholes, they are one of the most dynamic and interesting parts of EVE.


In a way yes. It's more about the absurd intel available from API now for w-space. That intel shows when NPC are being killed but no longer shows jumps into the system. It's what I refer to as dinner bell intel since that is all that the intel is good for....check api, see that someone is farming and then go in for the kill. Of course, it's not the lack of intel that burns my ass here. It's the blatant skew of intel. Honestly, I'd rather see no intel from api coming from wormholes. But, that's just me.

The last few folks seem to believe that my nationality has something to do with this when, in fact, it does not. I'm sure if nullsec had CCP hang a bell around their necks the way they did with wormhole inhabitants they'd be here complaining about it as well.


I don't really see the problem...wormhole corps are usually pretty flexible from my experience of fighting them, they tend to have decent T3 setups and get the basic understanding of PvP (more so than miners). It honestly sounds great, wormholes will be more exciting, there will be more PvP and pew pew, and both wormhole farmers and PvPers win.

The only ones who will be negatively affected by this are the pure carebear wspace farmers who do not belong in them in the first place. Good riddance.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2011-12-03 16:33:52 UTC
wormholes were not meant to be lived it. in fact assume it gets harder to live in a wormhole, it might be more fun that way

you and 20 friends jump into a wormhole, 19 BS/t3 and an orca
after scouting:
orca finds safe spot, cloaks right away
orca will by the d-scan spammer

everyone else starts scanning away first few sites are scanned down and fleets warp in killing everything looting salaging, when full orca decloaks and they transfer the loot

after te system is farmed the fun part is finding a way out, the entrance probably closed if it didnt orca would probably go through with loot alone
the rest you you have to find a WH leading somewhere you want to be, maybe even heading to other WH systems where others are farming or searching for kills.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#60 - 2011-12-03 16:49:00 UTC
Quote:
Good, wspace is everything I wish nullsec was.


I do too. Without local you would have 75% less kills.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it