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t2 BPO's need to go if we're truly going to make things equal

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Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-05-06 19:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gamer4liff
Sigras wrote:
Tar'z wrote:
The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay.

You mean other than buying them from players just like you buy everything else in game?

Even in a vacuum that argument doesn't hold up, T1 BPOs are bought from NPCs, and us original owners only had to purchase T2 BPOs in varying amounts of RP. Certainly not the prices they command these days.

In my opinion there should be a mechanic for players to get T2 BPOs without having to purchase them from others. It's pretty clear CCP is leaning the other direction though towards reducing their effects/phasing them out.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Tar'z
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-05-07 02:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tar'z
I mean acquired through the environment.

The only other items to my knowledge that can only be acquired through player trading are items that provide no added benefit, or provide added benefit but can be effectively destroyed in space.

The T2 BPO is a rare gifted item that provides additional benefits but can also be used with complete safety. If there are other gifts of a similar nature then I'd like to hear it, I'm new-ish to the game so of course I could be missing something from the past.
Sigras
Conglomo
#43 - 2014-05-07 07:56:27 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Tar'z wrote:
The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay.

You mean other than buying them from players just like you buy everything else in game?

Even in a vacuum that argument doesn't hold up, T1 BPOs are bought from NPCs, and us original owners only had to purchase T2 BPOs in varying amounts of RP. Certainly not the prices they command these days.

In my opinion there should be a mechanic for players to get T2 BPOs without having to purchase them from others. It's pretty clear CCP is leaning the other direction though towards reducing their effects/phasing them out.

You were in game when invention was introduced just like I was... This means that one of four things happened:

1. You got a T2 BPO
2. You had a TON of RP and made Billions selling datacores/inventing
3. You had a TON of RP but were an idiot and tried to sell them at the same time as everyone else
4. You were an idiot and didnt bother with research even though it had no opportunity cost.

either way, you either made a ton of ISK or you screwed up somehow and it's your fault that you didnt...
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-05-07 12:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gamer4liff
Sigras wrote:

You were in game when invention was introduced just like I was... This means that one of four things happened:

1. You got a T2 BPO
2. You had a TON of RP and made Billions selling datacores/inventing
3. You had a TON of RP but were an idiot and tried to sell them at the same time as everyone else
4. You were an idiot and didnt bother with research even though it had no opportunity cost.

either way, you either made a ton of ISK or you screwed up somehow and it's your fault that you didnt...

Did you even read my post? I have 4 T2 BPOs, I won all of them over multiple research characters years ago after invention came out, but before the lottery ended, but that's besides the point. My point is that saying "well players in these days can just buy a T2 BPO from other players" is a cop out. They didn't have the opportunities I had to get them through the game environment. I believe that players should have the opportunities to get T2 BPOs again from the game itself, regrettably though it seems CCP is going the other direction.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#45 - 2014-05-07 13:03:39 UTC
If you're going to make the "things should be equal" argument, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Because the exact same argument of "you only got that because you were playing longer than me!" can be transposed to skillpoints fairly easily, and that exposes just how dumb the entire argument is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-05-07 13:35:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
If you're going to make the "things should be equal" argument, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Because the exact same argument of "you only got that because you were playing longer than me!" can be transposed to skillpoints fairly easily, and that exposes just how dumb the entire argument is.

There's nothing stopping people from accumulating skillpoints over time though so that argument falls flat. The mechanism by which players gain T2 BPOs was straight up removed. Frankly I think people who spend a lot of time inventing items deserve a crack at gaining BPOs for the items they invent.

Not even advocating for equality, again, merely equality of opportunity.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
drillerkiller2004
Brazilian Vultures
Ferrata Victrix
#47 - 2014-05-08 14:21:54 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
Unless I missed a specific note, with the changes to copy and manufacturing t2 BPOs are getting a buff in the summer.

I have a couple t2 bpos and I think many of you are horribly overestimated their profits. Yes almost all of them turn a profit but its pretty small on all but a couple, you can make much better isk doing invention. You trade off convenience for not needing to keep doing inv jobs and just keep pumping them out, but much slower than t2 bpcs will. T2 bpos have had their man and copy times massively increased to adjust how they compare to invented t2 bpcs. Where a bpc might build in 20 min the bpo takes 2 hours.



That's what I meant when I said 'It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.'

Once T2 BPO owners have the ability to mass produced their items from squillions of high end BPCs then it's over for the common inventor.

Well done CCP, you deserve a massive round of applause.
Sigras
Conglomo
#48 - 2014-05-08 16:16:48 UTC
drillerkiller2004 wrote:
ExookiZ wrote:
Unless I missed a specific note, with the changes to copy and manufacturing t2 BPOs are getting a buff in the summer.

I have a couple t2 bpos and I think many of you are horribly overestimated their profits. Yes almost all of them turn a profit but its pretty small on all but a couple, you can make much better isk doing invention. You trade off convenience for not needing to keep doing inv jobs and just keep pumping them out, but much slower than t2 bpcs will. T2 bpos have had their man and copy times massively increased to adjust how they compare to invented t2 bpcs. Where a bpc might build in 20 min the bpo takes 2 hours.



That's what I meant when I said 'It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.'

Once T2 BPO owners have the ability to mass produced their items from squillions of high end BPCs then it's over for the common inventor.

Well done CCP, you deserve a massive round of applause.

confirming that a 5% increase will suddenly allow T2 BPO owners to increase their yield 1000%
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-05-08 16:31:52 UTC
drillerkiller2004 wrote:
CCP constantly make changes in game to make it a bit easier for newer players and keep it fair.

What's fair about players//alliances owning T2 BPO's that were given to them 10/11 years prior to any of these guys starting up. Especially when there's no chance of them ever attaining them the same way.

CCP should set a future date and get rid of them, make T2 a level playing field of invention alone.

It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.

Now I totally expect to get flamed by the alliances or individuals that own the BPOs, but I'm sorry guys you will have to get over it. You've had it too good for too long.



Right on. Also, we should probably zero out everyone's wallet and assets periodically. It's not fair to new players that some people are running around with trillion isk personal fortunes that they could never hope to match.

And this skill system is ridiculous. I have over 120m SP - how is someone starting today supposed to ever be my equal?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#50 - 2014-05-08 16:42:20 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
If you're going to make the "things should be equal" argument, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Because the exact same argument of "you only got that because you were playing longer than me!" can be transposed to skillpoints fairly easily, and that exposes just how dumb the entire argument is.

There's nothing stopping people from accumulating skillpoints over time though so that argument falls flat. The mechanism by which players gain T2 BPOs was straight up removed. Frankly I think people who spend a lot of time inventing items deserve a crack at gaining BPOs for the items they invent.

Not even advocating for equality, again, merely equality of opportunity.


The mechanism by which people get Gecko drones will be straight up removed by the end of the month.

Do we delete those drones, too?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
drillerkiller2004
Brazilian Vultures
Ferrata Victrix
#51 - 2014-05-08 17:00:58 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
drillerkiller2004 wrote:
CCP constantly make changes in game to make it a bit easier for newer players and keep it fair.

What's fair about players//alliances owning T2 BPO's that were given to them 10/11 years prior to any of these guys starting up. Especially when there's no chance of them ever attaining them the same way.

CCP should set a future date and get rid of them, make T2 a level playing field of invention alone.

It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating every part of the T2 market.

Now I totally expect to get flamed by the alliances or individuals that own the BPOs, but I'm sorry guys you will have to get over it. You've had it too good for too long.



Right on. Also, we should probably zero out everyone's wallet and assets periodically. It's not fair to new players that some people are running around with trillion isk personal fortunes that they could never hope to match.

And this skill system is ridiculous. I have over 120m SP - how is someone starting today supposed to ever be my equal?



Don't be ridiculous.
drillerkiller2004
Brazilian Vultures
Ferrata Victrix
#52 - 2014-05-11 22:36:49 UTC
I see the T2 BPO fire sales have started Lol
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