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Ore is being harvested 50% faster than tears

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Drak Morgan
Society of the Prevention of Cruelty to Drones
#121 - 2014-05-08 11:31:32 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
That's 25 billion m3 ... not 25 billion ISK.

Opps my bad, I misread it.

So off the top of my head using your numbers each miner is can mine about 1/100000 to 3/100000 percent of the total goal per hour for mining... okay looks like a small number.

BUT for bounties example the average bounty/hour earned in a l4 high sec mission is about 13million (give or take) or about 1/500000 of a percent. I won't even go into PvP but I would argue that it a much smaller number per hour, only getting bumped when fleet battle occur involving capital ships getting popped.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#122 - 2014-05-08 12:33:20 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:

Refuse to defend? Not really... we sometimes simply aren't able to... one thing that should actually not be possible in a PvP centered game.


This is true, sometimes you just die. That's how a PvP game works, actually. Everywhere but highsec, that is.

Are you actually telling me that mining ships can't be pre-aligned? Or what?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#123 - 2014-05-08 12:35:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:

Refuse to defend? Not really... we sometimes simply aren't able to... one thing that should actually not be possible in a PvP centered game.


This is true, sometimes you just die. That's how a PvP game works, actually. Everywhere but highsec, that is.

Are you actually telling me that mining ships can't be pre-aligned? Or what?


You're arguing with people who, in their own minds, are victims. You will never ever be able to convinced someone who was born a victim that 'justice' (and safety) is something you make and earn, not something that is given.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#124 - 2014-05-08 12:38:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:

Refuse to defend? Not really... we sometimes simply aren't able to... one thing that should actually not be possible in a PvP centered game.


This is true, sometimes you just die. That's how a PvP game works, actually. Everywhere but highsec, that is.

Are you actually telling me that mining ships can't be pre-aligned? Or what?


You're arguing with people who, in their own minds, are victims. You will never ever be able to convinced someone who was born a victim that 'justice' (and safety) is something you make and earn, not something that is given.


Oh, I am aware of that.

What I don't understand is why, if they are so averse to getting blown up, that they insist on flying non combat ships.

"Miners can't defend themselves and it's not fair!"

Yeah, you chose a non combat ship. You chose not to defend yourself. When you are flying a mining barge, you are the gazelle. If you don't want to be the gazelle, then don't fly non combat ships.

It's like they think they get to have their cake and eat it to, or something. Like they think they're special.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Josef Djugashvilis
#125 - 2014-05-08 12:53:17 UTC
Kaarous Allwind and Jenn aWhine, the tweedle dee and tweedle dum of Eve Online.


This is not a signature.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#126 - 2014-05-08 12:54:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You're arguing with people who, in their own minds, are victims. You will never ever be able to convinced someone who was born a victim that 'justice' (and safety) is something you make and earn, not something that is given.

...and there is my favorite cop, I wondered when you'd show up. Blink Also good to see that you still don't know what a "game" is... you know, it's not real life, it's supposed to be fun, and all that. Roll

@Kaarous Aldurald: Because there are no combat mining barges (yet) and you cannot really do mining in a (combat fitted) battleship... highsec is there for a reason, why do "people like you" keep insisting on forcing your "gameplay" on people that clearly don't want to be part of it? That's what I really want to know... and don't give me that NO "the code" bull... I know, it's fun, you already said it yourself... well, it's not fun for everyone...

Bottom line: Your fun enfringes the fun of others... others who are just as entitled to their fun then you are.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#127 - 2014-05-08 12:59:00 UTC
This is far more simple than you are making it.

If you fly a non combat ship, you have abdicated the ability to defend yourself.

If you don't like that, then just don't mine.

But stop whining about the consequences of the choice you made. Yes, you can get blown up. Don't like it? Then either learn to align, or don't mine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#128 - 2014-05-08 13:00:54 UTC
"highsec is there for a reason"?

Pretty sure that reason isn't "mine endlessly in complete safety".

You might want to drop a ticket so a GM can answer that, but I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that you aren't safe anywhere in EVE unless you're docked. Idk where, just popped into my head for some reason.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#129 - 2014-05-08 13:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Shalua Rui wrote:

...and there is my favorite cop, I wondered when you'd show up. Blink Also good to see that you still don't know what a "game" is... you know, it's not real life, it's supposed to be fun, and all that. Roll


What kind of 'fun game' plays itself for you? A good game is one that challenges the player to overcome an obstacle (in EVe, that obstacle is OTHER PEOPLE).

I'm a PVE player and I've never been ganked in high sec. I have successfully played the game by "pvping" the PVPrs (in denying them the enjoyment of my killmail). That's fun to me.

Quote:

@Kaarous Aldurald: Because there are no combat mining barges (yet) and you cannot really do mining in a (combat fitted) battleship... highsec is there for a reason, why do "people like you" keep insisting on forcing your "gameplay" on people that clearly don't want to be part of it? That's what I really want to know... and don't give me that NO "the code" bull... I know, it's fun, you already said it yourself... well, it's not fun for everyone...


They do want to be a part of it. They logged into EVE Online instead of Star Trek Online (or WoW). EVE online does not have any mechanical barriers to interaction except being docked in a station unlike the other games I mention.

So if you log into EVE online wanting to be left alone or left out of interference?interaction from someone else, then the problem is your incorrect choice of game to play, not anything Kaarous and others have done.

Quote:

Bottom line: Your fun enfringes the fun of others... others who are just as entitled to their fun then you are.


You are woefully out of place in this competitive game. You should be playing a game that only offers 'co-op' style play and that has solid rules and mechanics against competition and 'griefing'.

Again , the problem is your incorrect choices and incompatibility with EVE Online, not the actions of others. Those of us who are mentally compatible with EVE Online are having a blast.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-05-08 13:19:23 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Also good to see that you still don't know what a "game" is... you know, it's not real life, it's supposed to be fun, and all that. Roll

There was a person who was stuck on the 3rd explo starter mission in a rookie system.

If any of you remember that mission, it can be incredibly frustrating because it tells you absolutely nothing about aligning probes to get to 100%, and it says nothing about the super weird hacking minigame or the loot spew that won't appear on overview and disappears quickly.

Anyway, this person couldn't get 100% to warp to the training data site. I checked a few basic things then told her she could align her probes on the map. She didn't want to do it. I gave her a link to the e-uni page on Probing. Doesn't want to open it.. viruses. Other people in the system chime in and say e-uni is legit. Nope.. viruses. She just wants someone to give her the Proof of Discovery so that she can finish the mission. I go into details on what to do in the Map to align probes. First do it in the XY axis, then on the Z axis, etc. etc. Doesn't want to do it.

Eventually somebody just gets in a Bantam and gets it for her. And then, she asked the person to get the mission objective for the next explo mission too!

I'm telling you my experience because I think that partially it's symptomatic. If the game changes its design to be "fun" for a player like that, the bullseye for the game shifts and affects all players. It's impossible to be paranoid 100% of the time, but I think it's a core property of EVE to require this paranoia, everywhere, all the time. If players are insulated from it, I agree.. many of them will enjoy the game.. but it fosters isolation, lack of cooperation, lack of need to desperately ask in a chat for help, or fleet up and coordinate plans.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#131 - 2014-05-08 13:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Drak Morgan wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
That's 25 billion m3 ... not 25 billion ISK.

Opps my bad, I misread it.

So off the top of my head using your numbers each miner is can mine about 1/100000 to 3/100000 percent of the total goal per hour for mining... okay looks like a small number.

BUT for bounties example the average bounty/hour earned in a l4 high sec mission is about 13million (give or take) or about 1/500000 of a percent. I won't even go into PvP but I would argue that it a much smaller number per hour, only getting bumped when fleet battle occur involving capital ships getting popped.


you're off by a factor of 10, I think

3900 m3/ min * 60 min = 234k / 25b = 0.00000936
0.00000936 * 100 = 0.000936% = 9/10,000 %

Now, this is all "on paper" maths, and you obviously can't mine with 100% efficiency.

And we're not accounting for fleet boosts ...

Venture = ~750 m3/min
Hulk = ~6400 - 6600 m3/min

(throw in "max yield" fitting + implants ... and the hulk tops out at around 7980 m3/min in hisec or 10,100 m3/ min in low / null / wspace)


NOTE --> I'm probably (still) effing up the maths, since i'm doing this on the fly, rather than with a good tool (yay work).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Scarlett LaBlanc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-05-08 13:25:34 UTC
Drak Morgan wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:
I think she/he was referring to miners in regard to the topic, not miners in general...
A fleet of with Macs and Orcas in high have Concord protecting them from PvP even in 0.5,


It's clear you do not fully understand how CONCORD functions. They do NOT provide protection. They provide consequences.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#133 - 2014-05-08 13:29:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"highsec is there for a reason"?

Pretty sure that reason isn't "mine endlessly in complete safety".

You might want to drop a ticket so a GM can answer that, but I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that you aren't safe anywhere in EVE unless you're docked. Idk where, just popped into my head for some reason.

It is also stated nowhere that highsec is where "lazy, bored gankers go to get their kicks", yet it's a reality... you may be the exception, since you gank everywhere as you said yourself, but there are others that take the easiest route to get their thrills.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#134 - 2014-05-08 13:35:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

If you fly a non combat ship, you have abdicated the ability to defend yourself.


Nah, plenty of ships that dont have combat as their primary roles can defend themselves.

Abdication of personal responsibility is the fault of the pilot, not of the ship manufacturers

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#135 - 2014-05-08 13:36:38 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:

It is also stated nowhere that highsec is where "lazy, bored gankers go to get their kicks", yet it's a reality... you may be the exception, since you gank everywhere as you said yourself, but there are others that take the easiest route to get their thrills.


If it aint in High Sec it aint ganking.

Its known as "normal course of events" every where else lol

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#136 - 2014-05-08 13:37:09 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

If you fly a non combat ship, you have abdicated the ability to defend yourself.


Nah, plenty of ships that dont have combat as their primary roles can defend themselves.

Abdication of personal responsibility is the fault of the pilot, not of the ship manufacturers


"Defend yourself" meaning "shoot back" in this instance.

As opposed to highsec, where it means "tank enough to not die before the invincible all powerful space police arrive".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#137 - 2014-05-08 13:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Jenn aSide wrote:
You are woefully out of place in this competitive game. You should be playing a game that only offers 'co-op' style play and that has solid rules and mechanics against competition and 'griefing'.

I, again, have to respectfully disagree... EVE is not "just" a competative game, it's also a cooperative game... it's a sandbox non the less, not a MOBA or dedicated e-sports game. Granted, basically everything in EVE is a competition of some sort, but without cooperation it would be non existent...

That, of course, also means: EVE is what players make of it...

EDIT: @Ramona: Granted. Lol

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#138 - 2014-05-08 13:39:02 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

If you fly a non combat ship, you have abdicated the ability to defend yourself.


Nah, plenty of ships that dont have combat as their primary roles can defend themselves.

Abdication of personal responsibility is the fault of the pilot, not of the ship manufacturers

Case and point

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#139 - 2014-05-08 13:42:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


"Defend yourself" meaning "shoot back" in this instance.

As opposed to highsec, where it means "tank enough to not die before the invincible all powerful space police arrive".


Itty of doom?

Or a barge with maximum tank and ninja drone skills on the pilot possibly

I know what you mean, Im not really disagreeing, but I have seen things that were hilarious occur when a "non-pvper" uses his brain rather than his mouth first

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Drak Morgan
Society of the Prevention of Cruelty to Drones
#140 - 2014-05-08 13:49:13 UTC
Clearly you've never watchhed a blinky go pop as the miners ignors them when concord shows up... and then sits there for the next 30 minutes. Call it what you like it's protection in my book.


For the record I mine and pve. I only get ganked in highsec when I lose SA (situational awareness) or mine afk. I only highsec mine when I need something and don't feel the need to buy the minerals.

Not aligning as you mine is stupid no mater where you are. Not expecting every blinky in local to be looking for you is stupid, not initiating warp away went a non-miner shows up at you belt is stupid... Darwinism at its best, the stupid go pop and the smart can mine another day without buying a new ship, clone, and implants.

As for my math even with being of by a factor of 10 it is still a full order of magnitude difference. Not really all that balanced.