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Question about T2 ship production

Author
Hamani Jhoor
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-05-08 06:44:17 UTC
Can someone explain to me the reason why it is almost impossible to make any profit from manufacturing T2 ships?

From what I understand, it is either:

1) it's obviously cheaper to build from a T2 BPO

2) people acquiring cheaper materials in null sec from moon mining used in the construction.

Is it really that simple?
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#2 - 2014-05-08 06:46:08 UTC
3) Everyone else knows how to use decryptors
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-08 07:06:20 UTC
It's perfectly possible to make profit on most T2 ships (not all) by buying all the raw mats from Jita. It's only the areas with very low demand where the T2 BPOs hold sway. Re-check your calculations.
That'one
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-05-08 08:22:43 UTC
and remember some t2 ships have no bpo as they were released after the lottery ended, oh and some people cant count so if you think your maths is really off it may just be them running at a loss!
Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#5 - 2014-05-08 09:16:58 UTC
no effort = no profit
there is no real difference in time consumption betweeen Industry, mining, Ratting. Just instead of shooting red crosses you gotta do spreadsheets and some research. It's pretty naive to think that simply putting things within 5 min should make u much more than 5 min of mining/ratting w/e...

T2 BPO's have absolutely nothing to with your issue, not a tiny bit. It's just easier to blame them than beeing honest enough to blame yourself
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
#6 - 2014-05-08 09:20:07 UTC
Quote:
2) people acquiring cheaper materials in null sec from moon mining used in the construction.


Also not true. That's using "I mined it myself, therefore it's free" logic.

If the sum cost of the parts bought off the market for a ship is more than the cost of the ship, manufacturing them from mined moon materials "acquired cheaply" is actually just reducing your own potential profit margins. Opportunity cost wasted.
Hamani Jhoor
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-05-08 11:52:20 UTC
Ty everyone, things are a lot clearer now. My biggest issue is not using the decriptors as I should obviously should be. Trying to manufacture from a -4 -4 bpc is where I am going wrong.
Shinya Shazih
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-05-08 22:57:53 UTC
Hamani Jhoor wrote:
Ty everyone, things are a lot clearer now. My biggest issue is not using the decriptors as I should obviously should be. Trying to manufacture from a -4 -4 bpc is where I am going wrong.


Been there, done that

So now your question is what decryptor to use? :D
RonPaul Rox
Stribog Proving
Stribog Clade
#9 - 2014-05-09 02:14:46 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:
no effort = no profit
there is no real difference in time consumption betweeen Industry, mining, Ratting. Just instead of shooting red crosses you gotta do spreadsheets and some research. It's pretty naive to think that simply putting things within 5 min should make u much more than 5 min of mining/ratting w/e...

T2 BPO's have absolutely nothing to with your issue, not a tiny bit. It's just easier to blame them than beeing honest enough to blame yourself


to say t2 BPOs do "absolutely nothing" to decrease profitability for invention is patently wrong. the rest of your post is correct however

http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL

Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-05-09 03:41:09 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:

to say t2 BPOs do "absolutely nothing" to decrease profitability for invention is patently wrong. the rest of your post is correct however


Ok. they do pretty much nothing to most markets. Aside from a few small t2 ship markets t2 bpo's dont supply anything close to 5% of demand.
Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#11 - 2014-05-09 06:09:46 UTC
RonPaul Rox wrote:


to say t2 BPOs do "absolutely nothing" to decrease profitability for invention is patently wrong.


fortunately I just said it has nothing to do with his issue (not beeing able to make isk from invention).
Also T2 BPO's don't cut anyone's profit... there are just broke items that arent used and don't make any profit... on the paper it might look like only T2 BPO's can build those for profit but for ~200 mil p/a ppl don't even touch a T2 BPO. Example: rocket BPO's frig sized platings etc etc
. IF T2 BPO's would be an issue there would be a signifcant gab between Items with and w/o T2 BPO's... just check how profitable Heavy Interdictors (No T2 BPO's)




Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#12 - 2014-05-09 06:26:48 UTC
Otti Ottig wrote:
RonPaul Rox wrote:


to say t2 BPOs do "absolutely nothing" to decrease profitability for invention is patently wrong.


fortunately I just said it has nothing to do with his issue (not beeing able to make isk from invention).
Also T2 BPO's don't cut anyone's profit... there are just broke items that arent used and don't make any profit... on the paper it might look like only T2 BPO's can build those for profit but for ~200 mil p/a ppl don't even touch a T2 BPO. Example: rocket BPO's frig sized platings etc etc
. IF T2 BPO's would be an issue there would be a signifcant gab between Items with and w/o T2 BPO's... just check how profitable Heavy Interdictors (No T2 BPO's)









Yes... I'm sure people pay 200+b for a ship BPO that they plan to NOT USE.
Otti Ottig
Hesso Business
#13 - 2014-05-09 06:46:49 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:


Yes... I'm sure people pay 200+b for a ship BPO that they plan to NOT USE.


huh?
..missing context

Wich BPO I was talking about is worth 200b? rockets, platings or the HEAVY INTERDICTOR BPO?
Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#14 - 2014-05-09 10:43:14 UTC
Hamani Jhoor wrote:
Ty everyone, things are a lot clearer now. My biggest issue is not using the decriptors as I should obviously should be. Trying to manufacture from a -4 -4 bpc is where I am going wrong.

You might find the application in my signature useful.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-05-10 01:02:19 UTC
Don't make all the components. Some of them are bad ISK/hr.

BlueWo1f
BlueWo1f Corp
#16 - 2014-05-10 12:11:54 UTC
I must say, although not using decryptors properly is a pretty fatal error on the OP's post, having ran the numbers for T2 ships on a number of occasions (with all decryptor permutations) I've always been confused at the lack of profit.

Yesterday for completely unrelated reasons i reran the numbers on all t2 ships and only found 2 ships that would achieve above 200,000isk per hour, a pretty anaemic return (I generally target items with a minimum of 1,000,000iph, and good sales of course). This is based off purchasing component materials from jita (because if the profitability is in the components dont make the ships, make the components) and sold in a different main trade hub (a hub because otherwise to a large extent you're actually becoming a trader, you may as well buy the ship from the trade hub and resell it for profit at the remote locations).

I can't believe that this is all due to BPO's. The only answer that I can find is that for the same reason I want to make ships, everyone wants to make ships, as such for the same reason the early t1 ship market is mainly loss making, people make t2 at a loss either knowingly (my materials are free!!) or just without caring about return.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-05-10 15:43:05 UTC
One of the most fascinating things about the eve economy is that some of the most simple items offer the best isk per hour.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#18 - 2014-05-10 16:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
BlueWo1f wrote:
I must say, although not using decryptors properly is a pretty fatal error on the OP's post, having ran the numbers for T2 ships on a number of occasions (with all decryptor permutations) I've always been confused at the lack of profit.

Yesterday for completely unrelated reasons i reran the numbers on all t2 ships and only found 2 ships that would achieve above 200,000isk per hour, a pretty anaemic return (I generally target items with a minimum of 1,000,000iph, and good sales of course). This is based off purchasing component materials from jita (because if the profitability is in the components dont make the ships, make the components) and sold in a different main trade hub (a hub because otherwise to a large extent you're actually becoming a trader, you may as well buy the ship from the trade hub and resell it for profit at the remote locations).

I can't believe that this is all due to BPO's. The only answer that I can find is that for the same reason I want to make ships, everyone wants to make ships, as such for the same reason the early t1 ship market is mainly loss making, people make t2 at a loss either knowingly (my materials are free!!) or just without caring about return.


Holy ****, according to your numbers the last ship my industry-alt sold took either 250 hours to complete, or there are more then just the two T2-ships you found. Since it didn't take me 250 hours, I must be lucky. Lol

As an aside, counting ISK per hour in industry doesn't make much sense, since you end up with a lot of time spend waiting for build times to finish, which would make even high profits look small if you take all the time into account. The important point is however, you don't have to be logged in to make your worker crews work. They do the work even if you're offline. With contracts to let other people do the hauling you could pull your actual time so far down you get something like 50 million ISK per hour on your average HAC. If you spend 1-2 hours hauling **** around yourself, I guess the "ISK per hour" would shrink to 25 - 16,667 million ISK per hour.

Now I really want to know how you calculated a so ridiculous low profit. Did you use decryptors giving you -5 ME BPCs as a calculation base or something?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-05-10 17:48:02 UTC
You don't seem to understand the idea of isk/hr

It's not calculated based on real life time, it's calculated based on production time

A job that will make you 100m profit over 20 hours has an isk/hr value of 5m. Good luck finding one

And yes, he is correct, isk/hr is abysmal for t2 ships and most t2 modules (unless you are very careful about which components you produce on your own and which ones you buy from the market)

The numbers are a bit better for a few t2 modules, but module invention is the biggest clickfest out there

BlueWo1f
BlueWo1f Corp
#20 - 2014-05-10 21:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: BlueWo1f
Owen Levanth wrote:

Holy ****, according to your numbers the last ship my industry-alt sold took either 250 hours to complete, or there are more then just the two T2-ships you found. Since it didn't take me 250 hours, I must be lucky. Lol

As an aside, counting ISK per hour in industry doesn't make much sense, since you end up with a lot of time spend waiting for build times to finish, which would make even high profits look small if you take all the time into account. The important point is however, you don't have to be logged in to make your worker crews work. They do the work even if you're offline. With contracts to let other people do the hauling you could pull your actual time so far down you get something like 50 million ISK per hour on your average HAC. If you spend 1-2 hours hauling **** around yourself, I guess the "ISK per hour" would shrink to 25 - 16,667 million ISK per hour.

Now I really want to know how you calculated a so ridiculous low profit. Did you use decryptors giving you -5 ME BPCs as a calculation base or something?


I assure you I've ran an extensive test of the market in the main trade hubs to be assured of the conclusion, literally every ship checked without decryptors and with each decryptor. Furthermore I used the same database I use to track my usual products so the system is extensively bug tested. The of all the ships tested below are the potential iph values above 200,000 iph (names are redacted for the benefit of anyone that has done the market research and to not spoil the little isk they are making).

(Redacted Name) = 540,000 iph
(Redacted Name) = 230,000 iph
(Redacted Name) = 562,000 iph
(Redacted Name) = 241,000 iph
(Redacted Name) = 263,000 iph

If I'm getting this wrong I would love to know but I'm pretty sure this is correct. If you would care to message me in game with this valuable t2 ship that is being produced at a profit I would gladly verify its profitability and trade you market research on a more profitable item.

You aren't grasping the concept of isk per hour though, industry is the most practical profession to measure isk per hour. You're manufacturing slots have an inherit value, you can only have a maximum of 10 per character, therefore generally meaning each slot is worth about 70million per month or approx 70pence (the price of a plex divided by 10). You want to ensure you're getting the most value out of those slots.

Sure when the manufacturing times are weird you may not get the full value, i.e. the slot may be completed for 10hours before you log in to get it, subsequently the value of items such as drones which require a log in every 3 hours may result in the same profit as a t1 cruiser which takes days . But nevertheless iph is the correct way of calculating the profitability of manufacturing so long as you factor in the practicality of renewing your jobs, so picking items that fit your availability.

Your points about time logged in and hauling are unrelated, my industry time is fairly stream lined so i measure my effectiveness ingame time by other means; if you're measuring you're effectiveness as a manufacturer you use iph and minus hauling costs from the item values. Likewise if you're trying to trade in outer regions you need to split you're activities between 'the manufacturer' who produces an item that increases in value instantly and 'trader' who uses supply and demand to increase value.
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