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Eliminate siege, buff XL guns
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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-05-07 23:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Basic premise is to eliminate the siege mod for dreadnoughts entirely from the game, and while buffing the weapons so they do basically the same dps as before. Titans get their dps bonuses nerfed along the same lines.

To clarify, No capital sized ship with XL weapons would be getting a dps buff or nerf from this. The large bonus modifiers for sieged dps or titans would just roll into the weapons themselves.

Discuss implementation in the game, how it will affect the ships it applies to, and its impact on fleets.
All feedback is welcome. I'm not advocating this because I think it's an amazing idea, I'm mostly curious about why this isn't the case since on the surface it seems like a more straightforward and efficient way to balance things.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-05-07 23:53:17 UTC
whoo. 2.5m sp rebait from tactical weapon reconfig 5
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-07 23:58:33 UTC
I support this change on the gunnery side.

In fact there ought to be no need to buff the guns if the ships received more high slots, and a similar bonus to the titans. This might serve to make them more interesting ships (and give the moros back its drone bay please!)

However, there's still a problem to solve with local tank.

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Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-05-08 00:56:05 UTC
this would largely effect battles where a dread can do its same DPS WHILE being remote reped, cap transferred, remote sensor boosted, remote tracking linked, etc. The possibilities from this would be staggering and make this ship way to powerful in general.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2014-05-08 00:57:19 UTC
I am ok with like a 100% damage buff to capital weapons and a 50% nerf to siege and titan bonus.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#6 - 2014-05-08 01:42:48 UTC
Daoden wrote:
this would largely effect battles where a dread can do its same DPS WHILE being remote reped, cap transferred, remote sensor boosted, remote tracking linked, etc. The possibilities from this would be staggering and make this ship way to powerful in general.


I think this is the reason why triage and siege were made.

Taking a sebo'd and RR'd ship of any respectable stats and then scaling it up to 10k+ dps values makes for some extremely hard to balance gameplay. It's not as simple as changing a couple of values, its about what happens to every other ship in the game when a moros with blasters can track your battleships/cruisers with *relative* ease and then 1-shot you. Not to mention he can do it from 200km away with plutonium rounds because 3 remote tracking enhancers can do that.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#7 - 2014-05-08 01:45:38 UTC
Terrible idea TBH.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-05-08 03:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Daoden wrote:
this would largely effect battles where a dread can do its same DPS WHILE being remote reped, cap transferred, remote sensor boosted, remote tracking linked, etc. The possibilities from this would be staggering and make this ship way to powerful in general.


I think this is the reason why triage and siege were made.

Taking a sebo'd and RR'd ship of any respectable stats and then scaling it up to 10k+ dps values makes for some extremely hard to balance gameplay. It's not as simple as changing a couple of values, its about what happens to every other ship in the game when a moros with blasters can track your battleships/cruisers with *relative* ease and then 1-shot you. Not to mention he can do it from 200km away with plutonium rounds because 3 remote tracking enhancers can do that.


That's more an extension of large and XL blasters needing a serious range nerf. But the tank point is extremely valid, and raises the major issue of what exactly is the purpose of having those bonuses there in the first place. Perhaps they could not be scaled up completely to compensate, but still do a respectable amount of dps out of siege?

Perhaps they could average something like 3k dps with the few unbonused guns...it just seems very odd that not only do they need their dps buffed so high, with the siege mod itself with the dreads, and the hull bonuses with the titans. It just comes across as being very cumbersome, inefficient and unnecessary. Why heap all those damage bonuses on there (granted, I can see it being necessary with stacking due to the smaller number of weapon hardpoints) if the only purpose in doing so is to make them completely useless out of siege mode?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-05-08 03:50:41 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I support this change on the gunnery side.

In fact there ought to be no need to buff the guns if the ships received more high slots, and a similar bonus to the titans. This might serve to make them more interesting ships (and give the moros back its drone bay please!)

However, there's still a problem to solve with local tank.

How would local tank be considered an issue if you can be repped while doing full damage? The only reason siege mode gets such a high local rep bonus is to compensate for the inherent lack of support which is again, awkward and clumsy from a technical standpoint, albeit a necessary one.
Barring a gigantic size increase and a remodel for each of the dreadnoughts, there is physically no room for the larger weapons on their current models.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-05-08 06:01:05 UTC
As a Dread pilot, no. Siege and Triage are a choice.


Sometimes they're the right one, sometimes the wrong one, sometimes go all in and hope for the best but have fun doing it. 15 slow cats able to RR and EWAR support 10 dreads doing Siege 2 damage+application? You think blap Dreads are bad now?









The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-05-08 07:51:44 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Siege and Triage are a choice.



Care to elaborate?
I'm mostly proposing that the siege module itself be eliminated and the dps and dreads and titans be adjusted accordingly so no loss of dps occurs. This does not include eliminating Triage, as it doesn't factor into the guns discussion.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#12 - 2014-05-08 08:24:53 UTC
The utility with remote assistance would likely make dreads very difficult to kill with support on the field short of a DD. I think it would be more interesting to lower the local rep bonus and add some resistance bonus in Siege like the Bastion got, but that might make them too good maybe?
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#13 - 2014-05-08 08:54:50 UTC
You obviously have no clue. Siege is more than just dps boost. As others have said it stps it being RRed and being given cap.So the Only reps it hasare local. With multiple caps on field the best time to kill a dread is in siege and with this change a couple dreads with a couple carriers would be incredibly hard to stop even with a huge support fleet.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-05-08 10:22:45 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Basic premise is to eliminate the siege mod for dreadnoughts entirely from the game, and while buffing the weapons so they do basically the same dps as before. Titans get their dps bonuses nerfed along the same lines.

To clarify, No capital sized ship with XL weapons would be getting a dps buff or nerf from this. The large bonus modifiers for sieged dps or titans would just roll into the weapons themselves.

Discuss implementation in the game, how it will affect the ships it applies to, and its impact on fleets.
All feedback is welcome. I'm not advocating this because I think it's an amazing idea, I'm mostly curious about why this isn't the case since on the surface it seems like a more straightforward and efficient way to balance things.


How about no.... if dreads dont siege they are not fixed in position for 5 mins, this time is required to ad risk to using them as you can be hic pointed to stop you jumping out. also can work in you favour if no hic is on field and your good you drop out of siege and jump before someone applies a normal point.
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-05-08 11:08:11 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Siege and Triage are a choice.



Care to elaborate?
I'm mostly proposing that the siege module itself be eliminated and the dps and dreads and titans be adjusted accordingly so no loss of dps occurs. This does not include eliminating Triage, as it doesn't factor into the guns discussion.



Choice is the following:


Enter Siege/Triage, receive ridiculous boni at the expense of mobility and receiving support. Or don't.

If you remove the mods, you could drive-by in dreads with literally zero risk. If you fit a 100mn MWD and some align speed mods you could basically create a ship that cynos in, blaps the **** out of whatever is on the field and warps off before anything gets close enough to tackle it.

Also you could rep them without the Siege mod, so a tanked dread would be able to dish out his 12-18k DPS and be repped by carriers while doing so. Making it literally impossible to kill a dread in subcaps.

A dread in siege does not need to be tackled, it's helpless while in Siege.

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My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-05-08 11:46:10 UTC
Camper101 wrote:

If you remove the mods, you could drive-by in dreads with literally zero risk. If you fit a 100mn MWD and some align speed mods you could basically create a ship that cynos in, blaps the **** out of whatever is on the field and warps off before anything gets close enough to tackle it.

Also you could rep them without the Siege mod, so a tanked dread would be able to dish out his 12-18k DPS and be repped by carriers while doing so. Making it literally impossible to kill a dread in subcaps.

A dread in siege does not need to be tackled, it's helpless while in Siege.


The 18k number is correct if you overheat, use a T2 rig, 3 faction mag stabs and have implants.

To get into warp within 10 seconds, you'd need 2 inertia stabs and a MWD (max speed of 183.74 attained in 27s), but I agree that 10 seconds looks broken.

This leaves a moros (for example) with 1 damage control + 1 more low slot for tank, and 3 mid slots for tracking.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-05-08 15:07:56 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Camper101 wrote:

If you remove the mods, you could drive-by in dreads with literally zero risk. If you fit a 100mn MWD and some align speed mods you could basically create a ship that cynos in, blaps the **** out of whatever is on the field and warps off before anything gets close enough to tackle it.

Also you could rep them without the Siege mod, so a tanked dread would be able to dish out his 12-18k DPS and be repped by carriers while doing so. Making it literally impossible to kill a dread in subcaps.

A dread in siege does not need to be tackled, it's helpless while in Siege.


The 18k number is correct if you overheat, use a T2 rig, 3 faction mag stabs and have implants.

To get into warp within 10 seconds, you'd need 2 inertia stabs and a MWD (max speed of 183.74 attained in 27s), but I agree that 10 seconds looks broken.

This leaves a moros (for example) with 1 damage control + 1 more low slot for tank, and 3 mid slots for tracking.



You've never flown with Suddenly Spaceships ;)


My Bro, Camper has. Our dreads literally come standard with 4 faction mag stabs, T2 rig(s) and the benefit of well trained pilots :)

18k DPS is an accurate measure. And OP wants us to do 18k damage while being mobile and able to be repped by our slow cat bro's.


This is all kinds of a bad idea :(


'Specially when those carrier bro's throw down 3-4 tracking links and 3 Remote Sebo's so those dreads now lock nearly everything in 5 seconds and can track it too.

Siege and Triage are necessary to remove this type of remote boosting while a carrier or dread do massive dps or reps.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#18 - 2014-05-08 15:14:49 UTC
siege and triage are 'immune to electronic warfare' except capacitor. which apparently isnt electronic. if they made it truly immune to ALL ewar not just hand picking some that would be nice.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-05-08 15:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
This is such a blindingly, obviously awful idea.

You completely ignored every qualitative aspect of the siege module responsible for balancing that damage boost.

No, you cannot have a full damage dread with full mobility and full remote reps and you should be a little bit embarrassed for even asking.

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Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#20 - 2014-05-08 16:13:56 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
siege and triage are 'immune to electronic warfare' except capacitor. which apparently isnt electronic. if they made it truly immune to ALL ewar not just hand picking some that would be nice.


Neuting is the primary method that subcaps use to kill caps. This is their weakness to subcaps.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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