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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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We demand tactile currency!

First post
Author
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-05-07 19:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
HeXxploiT wrote:
Please show me a time in history when gold or silver has undergone inflation.

The Spanish Empire in the late 1500's. Both underwent severe inflation due to the influx of imports coming in from the new world. This subsequently led to the collapse of the Spanish economy and was one of the factors in the rise of the British Empire. Source 1. Source 2.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2014-05-07 20:50:15 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
trit, nocx and meg instead of bronze, silver and gold
and then morph can be diamond.

or AUR comes in bite size chunks. it can be ur paper money that says 'we promise to pay the bearer the sum of...'


Great idea but even those substances you mentioned are not desirable enough. There are places in eve where you can pick them up consistently on market for 50% below their value. This would never happen with gold and silver. A true bill must be a promissory note guaranteeing the owner of a specific value.


its literally impossible to buy something for 50% its value. so i guess u mean average trade price?

and it is possible to acquire gold and silver at lower than average trade price.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Adunh Slavy
#23 - 2014-05-07 21:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
I like the idea of being able to export our ISK as a 'thing'. However in the game, what purpose does it serve?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#24 - 2014-05-07 21:27:59 UTC
On another note, I suggest a few people in this thread read Carl Menger's Origins of Money, you'll perhaps look far less ignorant.

http://library.mises.org/books/Carl%20Menger/On%20the%20Origins%20of%20Money.pdf

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-05-07 21:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
HeXxploiT wrote:
A true bill must be a promissory note guaranteeing the owner of a specific value.

Not true. For example US currency (and the world economy in general) hasn't been directly backed by gold or silver since the end of the gold standard in 1971.

Since the end of the gold standard in 1971, the US has operated on a fiat currency which is not backed by any precious metal or other commodity. This form of commerce allows for fluctuations in the global currency market that were not possible under the gold standard. Since the gold standard established a set amount of gold that could be purchased with a country's currency, it also set the value of that currency. By ending the gold standard, it opened the way for free markets.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#26 - 2014-05-07 21:51:34 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
Also I would invite pilots to present any downside to having an actual physical currency although I can't imagine there are any.


Wouldn't this completely dissolve trade hubs? People already camp gates almost constantly, if you had to physically bring your money in your cargo hold in order to purchase anything there, trade hubs would vanish. Because almost everyone with buying intent dies, loses their money, and would either just not use trade hubs or ragequit depending on the quantities of ISK lost.
Adunh Slavy
#27 - 2014-05-07 22:57:56 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
By ending the gold standard, it opened the way for free markets.



100% absolutely wrong. Half of a transaction is controlled by a government or semi-government entity, primarily central banks. That is hardly a "free market".

Even with out manipulations of currency, a "free market" does not require 10,000 pages of regulations. When 10,000 pages of government rules, backed up by threats of violence, is "free", the Ministry of Truth clearly exists.

Orwell would be proud.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#28 - 2014-05-07 23:09:16 UTC
Aglais wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
Also I would invite pilots to present any downside to having an actual physical currency although I can't imagine there are any.


Wouldn't this completely dissolve trade hubs? People already camp gates almost constantly, if you had to physically bring your money in your cargo hold in order to purchase anything there, trade hubs would vanish. Because almost everyone with buying intent dies, loses their money, and would either just not use trade hubs or ragequit depending on the quantities of ISK lost.



I don't think the suggestion was that you *had* to have all of your ISK as physical. If that were the case, the hubs would likely have some trouble depending on a couple of things.

First, it would depend quite a bit on how 'big' exported ISK were. If the largest denomination were say a 100 ISK note, and the size were 0.01 M3 for each, then it would be tough to transport it. If on the other hand you could have a one billion ISK note that was 0.01 M3, then it would be much easier to transport.

If, in the case that the largest note were 100 ISK, the hubs would have a tough time. However if CCP also changed the market interface, such that "anything can be traded for anything", then something else might very well evolve as a money.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#29 - 2014-05-07 23:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Adunh Slavy wrote:
On another note, I suggest a few people in this thread read Carl Menger's Origins of Money, you'll perhaps look far less ignorant.

http://library.mises.org/books/Carl%20Menger/On%20the%20Origins%20of%20Money.pdf

If the post is directed at me, then the section about precious metals being used as money illustrates what I said earlier in the thread. I didn't read the rest as I assume that was the only relevant part.

Of course, it would be easier if you just directed your posts at the people you intend them for instead of making us second guess what you're talking about.
Adunh Slavy
#30 - 2014-05-07 23:14:26 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
They're resources which are a cause of inflation in the currencies you mentioned.



You've got that backwards. Over expansion of the supply of those currencies, (and credit denominated in that currency) is the ultimate cause of price inflation.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#31 - 2014-05-07 23:20:58 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Why?

Also if ISK would become an item could we buy/sell it on market? How much ISK would you pay me for my ISK?



Sell orders would be slightly above par and buys would be slightly below par. The spread in hubs would be almost nonexistent and would widen as one moved from the hub.

The whole question though is, what purpose would it serve? If it has no utility other than "gee wow, look, a pile of ISK" ... then who cares.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#32 - 2014-05-07 23:22:11 UTC
So you're saying inflation exists because the banks print too many bank notes.
Adunh Slavy
#33 - 2014-05-07 23:26:18 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
So you're saying inflation exists because the banks print too many bank notes.



Yep. That is the root cause of inflation. In fact, the first use of the term 'inflation' was used to describe an expansion of the supply of money and credit. Only later did it get distorted to describe a "general rise in prices".

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#34 - 2014-05-07 23:53:04 UTC
That does seem like the most obvious cause of inflation but I'm pretty sure inflation would still exist without intervention from banks.
Adunh Slavy
#35 - 2014-05-08 00:14:54 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
That does seem like the most obvious cause of inflation but I'm pretty sure inflation would still exist without intervention from banks.



Prior to the evolution of economics, there was not a term for "inflation", economics, as a social science evolved later.

Certainly expansions of money and credit existed prior to baking. The example of Spain was given and is a good example. China also had its bouts with inflation long before Europe ever played the paper money game. Long before banking, more than one gold smith lost his head for having more receipts for gold than he had gold in the vault.

Prior to paper currency, the most common form of inflation was debasement, where a government, usually the king, started to add other metal to the coins. Rome went through this as well with its iron coins. (An example often trotted out as 'successful' by people like Bill Still and other Modern Monetary Theorist knuckleheads.)

Often some would shave the edges from coins, it is another form of debasement. Why do you think coins have that ridge around the edges or the roughness? They are hold overs from when coins were made of precious metals. They were put there so that people could easily detect someone trying to shave off the metal.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#36 - 2014-05-08 00:21:53 UTC
That's not what I meant. Increasing the supply of currency isn't the only cause of inflation. It also doesn't explain how the extra supply of currency is getting into the hands of individuals, rather than just floating around in the pool of existing currency.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-05-08 00:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Adunh Slavy wrote:
100% absolutely wrong. Half of a transaction is controlled by a government or semi-government entity, primarily central banks. That is hardly a "free market".

Even with out manipulations of currency, a "free market" does not require 10,000 pages of regulations. When 10,000 pages of government rules, backed up by threats of violence, is "free", the Ministry of Truth clearly exists.

Orwell would be proud.

Better then making Charles Ponzi proud.
Adunh Slavy
#38 - 2014-05-08 00:46:48 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
That's not what I meant. Increasing the supply of currency isn't the only cause of inflation. It also doesn't explain how the extra supply of currency is getting into the hands of individuals, rather than just floating around in the pool of existing currency.


It is a good idea to denote the use of 'inflation' with a moniker. Such as, "Monetary inflation" or "Price inflation".

There is no "pool of currency", at least not any where with a concept of private property. Though one could argue government money is a pool, though more often it is referred to as a trough, lined with pigs of various sorts. After all, some animals are more equal than others.

How money goes from one individual to another depends on quite a few things, from government, religion, societal and cultural to such things as physical barriers. The primary mechanism however is the same as it is for anything else, marginal utility. Which, by no coincidence, is the same mechanism that causes prices to rise when the supply of money increases relative to the supply of goods and services.

If you only have $10 to your name, chances are you are going to trade it to someone with food. If you have $10,000,000, you'll give a bit to the food guy, some to the shoe guy, some to the Ferrari guy and perhaps some to the 28 year old playboy model your wife doesn't know about.

Trying to answer "where will the money go" is not something anyone can answer with 100% accuracy. Anyone who tells you they know for sure is full of it and probably works for the Federal Reserve or the ECB. In either case, they'll be sure to give the new money to their politically connected friends, who get the chance to spend it first.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#39 - 2014-05-08 00:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Better then making Charles Ponzi proud.



Depends on your point of view I suppose. Modern banking is the biggest Ponzi scam ever, thing about it is, it works in reverse, most people can't figure it out.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Adunh Slavy
#40 - 2014-05-08 00:53:36 UTC
Anyways ... I am derailing this guy's thread, my appologies.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt