Player Features and Ideas Discussion

timer rollbacks and stabs/cloaks become no longer relevant

Gonna say this. Not sure where this mindset for pvp came from. I was taught if looking real bad and you get that lucky break and get a shot to gtfo....gtfo. Old boy stomping your ass blows his orbit hard and breaks tackle, best you use those few seconds and clear out if you can. But that's me, dying like an idiot is not pvp. Its dying like an idiot.


Well that and not seeing the issue. 0.0 and WH has been dealing with people in pve mode avoiding roam attacks for years. Sometimes you have to get creative to catch them. I know from 0.0 there is one rule good to follow: don't pvp in pve ships, bad things can happen. I never faulted a ratter for clearing out if he could. Did the same thing when I ratted.

Don't forget the Venture! No Punishmet with build-in Stabs :) and cheap as other T1 Frigs.

Yeah I don't have a particularly good feeling about the incoming changes. Removing the ability to cloak prevents setting up a trap for wary FW players, and respawning NPC's are going to get in the way of fights. It seems to me that stabs are the problem(1) in this situation. I would like to see CCP seriously re-evaluate the purpose of stabs and figure out what they want them to do:

--Are they for industrials, freighters, DST's, JF's ect. to help them move/haul stuff around?

--Are they (with a redesign) for hit-and-run tactics? If so, does the present use of stabs in FW fall into the category of hit-and-run tactics, or exploitation of the system?

--Are they for general use to help facilitate travel? If so, should they be available to all ships or just some (perhaps nothing smaller then a cruiser)?

--Would we be better off removing stabs altogether and baking a warp-core strength bonus into certain ships (like the venture)?

I have the impression that stabs were a concept CCP wanted to place in game with a strong trade off (hence their heavy drawbacks making them rather useless on combat ships). But the drawbacks applied limit their uses to running around rather then anything dynamic. Obviously resistance to tackle is a very powerful bonus and would need to be considered heavily if we want to bring it into the PvP meta, but it may be a better use of stabs to redesign them out of their "you can only run away" foundation and perhaps try and swing them more towards niche skirmishing. To this end, I am unsure as to whether I agree with the OPs suggestion. All it seems to do is lengthen the period required to farm rather then address stabs as a rather half-baked module.

Counter Proposal: Let's limit stabs to 1 stab equipped per fit (like a damage control) and change the detriment to a reduction in warp speed. We should also add small and large versions. The small version means that dual long-points or a scram can still tackle most ships, but allow kiting ships to more easily pick and choose fights. This however allows skillful pilots to try and "catch up" to a target that is attempting to flee from combat. The large version would have high fitting requirements and a stronger warp-core strength bonus, but could only be equipped to relevant industrial and transport ships. This seems like a more interesting concept for a module to me then what we presently have.

(1) It's not so much that using a stabs in FW is a "problem" exactly since it's using stabs for what they were clearly designed for...running away. The issue lies that doing so in FW is rather against the spirit of the concept as using them allows for relatively risk-free farming. It's a weakness in the design more then it is an exploit. However I do agree that it definitely needs to be properly addressed.

I have no problems with stabbed farmers - if I hunt them intentionally I have 2 scrams fitted, if I just happen to see them i will go in hoping I can alpha them before they warp away. And even if they warp away I can happily sit in plex and talk with my corpies while he hangs at safe raging about his ISK/h ration going down the drains.

With that being said I still think FW should be more about "war" and less about "fare". Also: timer rollbacks.

The best part about stabbed FW plex farming is the taste of the tears, honestly (and I don't even AFK farm plexes or use WCS in my fits).

CCP THE GAME IS BROKEN BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE I CAN'T SHOOT! YOU MUST CHANGE THE RULES SO THEY ALL PLAY THE GAME MY WAY!

If this was miners complaining that a single catalyst can gank their yield-optimised hulk, you'd be laying on the ridicule in layers so thick it would collapse under its own gravity.

But no, it's "elite PvPers" complaining that some targets are hard to catch. If CCP caves in to nerfing stabbed plex farmers, next it will be MWD+cloak industrials, then it will be Prowlers, then it will be all the blockade runners, then it will be interdiction nullified T3s, then it will be everyone using covops cloaks, and then it will be everyone who shoots back.

Okay, maybe I'm heading into histrionics of my own.

One moment you were shooting a target, the next you weren't. Bring more/better WCS, or more DPS to explode the target before they wake up and escape.

Agree with OP: negative damage modifier is the most elegant solution. Other solutions proposed feel contrived and unnecessarily complicated.

30km decloak from button killing the occasional Astero fit doesn’t hold up as an argument against the feature – the problem is just infinitely bigger that concern for individual fits.

NPC’s ruining fights might very well be a necessary evil. But just as it may ruin some fights (and indeed solo kills) it might be considered the natural part of the landscape due to faction control of the system. For me the jury’s still out on this one.

Most of all: people are missing the point.

It’s not what problems YOU have with the farmers as an individual – it’s what farming as a concept does to the game. The fact of the matter is that ALL farming is bad. The very definition of farming is doing something repetitive, non-engaging and with close to zero content value for the participant or their fellow gamers. FW is supposed to be about fighting and having a good time, Killing is Just a Means of Communication™ after all ;). Farming is the exact opposite of that and in fact just a means to do something else – no more. As such it represents a failure of the system.

Ideally killing and having fun should also be the primary source of reward in FW. We’re not there yet, but taking strong steps to stamp out farming is a good first step.

Except this OP took the trouble to go to FF and talk to CCP about it directly. I have also pointed our two new lowsec CSM representatives over here.

Well two in one day, that's unusual.

lazy, so cutting and pasting from the other one.

well how about instead of nerfing something that people other than fw farmers use how about we get rid of button orbiting as the only method of warzone control and add pvp as the primary factor and keep the buttons for systems that people don't live in or defen. Something along the lines of once you warp into a plex if you warp out while an opposing faction is on grid with either the gate or inside the plex it moves slightly in favour of the opposing faction killing another member of the opposing faction move it more into your control (the bigger the kill the more it moves it).