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t2 BPO's need to go if we're truly going to make things equal

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Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-05-05 00:28:34 UTC
CCP has said they want to do something about T2 BPOs. I'm more concerned about the new T1 research times that will put anyone just getting started into industry after June at a huge, insurmountable disadvantage.

Research times are about to get ~4 times as long. Each year of pre-Kronos research will count as four years of post-Kronos research. That's a pretty insane advantage and one that shouldn't exist. I really hope CCP comes back from that decision and makes the research times a bit lower.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#22 - 2014-05-05 00:44:18 UTC
Sigras wrote:
i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions


t2 bpos are going away deal with it.

and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing.

some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Sigras
Conglomo
#23 - 2014-05-05 06:21:41 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Sigras wrote:
i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions

t2 bpos are going away deal with it.

and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing.

some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game.

Do you have a problem with my math or my logic? or are you simply ignoring everything except your pre conceived ideas because you dont know how to think critically?

Im betting on that last one.
Maruk Ihnati
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-05-05 09:52:07 UTC
One of the major flavors of this game that keeps me playing is History. The fact that its a sigle universe and it always has been, makes it so that your actions may be added to the EvE player lore and history.

CPP should know better what their impact to the whole market is. Nerfing them and buffing invention is what the solution should be. If they get cheap enough and at some point very few entities accumulate all BPO's, then additional nerfing so that they don't get to be a manipulative power in the hands of the few, like players like to do.

Don't just delete history, let them stay for the remembering of times long past.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#25 - 2014-05-05 11:47:38 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
I sold mine when one day I realied you know....my invention spamming was better isk.

Excellent then. Since they suck so bad people won't mind getting rid of them. +1
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#26 - 2014-05-05 13:53:32 UTC
Unless I missed a specific note, with the changes to copy and manufacturing t2 BPOs are getting a buff in the summer.

I have a couple t2 bpos and I think many of you are horribly overestimated their profits. Yes almost all of them turn a profit but its pretty small on all but a couple, you can make much better isk doing invention. You trade off convenience for not needing to keep doing inv jobs and just keep pumping them out, but much slower than t2 bpcs will. T2 bpos have had their man and copy times massively increased to adjust how they compare to invented t2 bpcs. Where a bpc might build in 20 min the bpo takes 2 hours.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2014-05-05 13:56:08 UTC
There are a handful of t2 bpos that are actually valuable
Ill leave which ones up to the reader
These bpos are for low volume high value items, in which currently the cost savings are the entire invented profit
This when combined with backlog currently restricts invention as a successful path for production

The downside is that when the bpos go the items will be much more expensive
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#28 - 2014-05-05 14:35:05 UTC
Yes, it's amazing now many people that are not actually involved in Invention are eagerly pushing for the price of all T2 goods to skyrocket. Big smile

As to the inventors, I get it. You don't like the need to keep your prices at a reasonable level.

That's perfectly understandable, but since CCP hasn't actually said they are going to remove T2 BPO's you may have to wait a bit before you receive free reign to screw over your fellow pod pilots.

Also, you should probably not listen to Goon propaganda... especially when they have a vested interest right now for buying up every T2 BPO they can bluff people into parting with before the next expansion. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2014-05-05 14:41:07 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI.

So you're telling me that if I gave you a choice between a vagabond BPO and 200 billion ISK right now, you'd take the vagabond BPO? because thats the choice BPO holders make every day. There are dozens of people with more money than math credits who are chomping at the bit to get a T2 BPO for ridiculous prices.

Im assuming your goal is to make the most money fastest, and T2 BPOs are not the way to do that. In fact, if you have a T2 BPO the way to make the most ISK fastest is to sell it and get into trading.


I would have taken the BPO a year or two back if I had the money back then; nowadays and with all the changes and possible removal of these BPOs, I would take the money instead and ignore the sweet market domination and juicy profits. I am not after fast money at all, I am after entertainment and do whatever I have to get it for me.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#30 - 2014-05-05 15:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
Someone else has a shiny toy that I want, but I can't get it because theirs is the only one I see! Sad

Make it fair CCP, either take their toy away or give me something shiny!

Someone just flew by me in an Ishukone Scorpion, so give me an Apocalypse Imperial Issue!


....


You know if it's that big of an issue between indy players you could always just stop rattling those sabres around in the ship hangar and put them to good use Lol

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Sigras
Conglomo
#31 - 2014-05-05 17:25:26 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI.

So you're telling me that if I gave you a choice between a vagabond BPO and 200 billion ISK right now, you'd take the vagabond BPO? because thats the choice BPO holders make every day. There are dozens of people with more money than math credits who are chomping at the bit to get a T2 BPO for ridiculous prices.

Im assuming your goal is to make the most money fastest, and T2 BPOs are not the way to do that. In fact, if you have a T2 BPO the way to make the most ISK fastest is to sell it and get into trading.

I would have taken the BPO a year or two back if I had the money back then; nowadays and with all the changes and possible removal of these BPOs, I would take the money instead and ignore the sweet market domination and juicy profits. I am not after fast money at all, I am after entertainment and do whatever I have to get it for me.

so you're telling me that you understand that selling a BPO is worth more than it will make in almost a decade...

So your real complaint isnt that T2 BPOs make a ton of ISK; you're complaining that you dont have the opportunity to play with the T2 BPOs and feel super powerful even though selling them and doing ANYTHING else is clearly the better financial decision.

This would make sense if you couldnt sell T2 BPOs but people do it all the time. Consider buying one... The math says that owning a T2 BPO is not nearly as good an idea as selling it for 9 years worth of production profit...
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2014-05-05 18:09:02 UTC
Sigras wrote:

so you're telling me that you understand that selling a BPO is worth more than it will make in almost a decade...

So your real complaint isnt that T2 BPOs make a ton of ISK; you're complaining that you dont have the opportunity to play with the T2 BPOs and feel super powerful even though selling them and doing ANYTHING else is clearly the better financial decision.

This would make sense if you couldnt sell T2 BPOs but people do it all the time. Consider buying one... The math says that owning a T2 BPO is not nearly as good an idea as selling it for 9 years worth of production profit...


No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-05-05 18:17:15 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:


Yeah but most T2 BPO's have been exploited by the original owners since they were won. Including years of much larger profit before Tech 2 components.

Remember 10M-15M Cap recharger II when they used to be built with a sprinkle of minerals?

I remember I bought my first Ishtar at 70M from Naga corp and that had profit in it. My first Rapier was 75M. Some people and some corps (eg: RKK) have been milking these lottery prizes for 10 yrs+

There will be winners and losers but I think it is right to nerf the Tech 2 BPO's (whilst I agree they should not be erased).

You aren't undercutting anything buy building only one ship at a time.

Rivr Luzade wrote:

No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else.

But you are just saying that, he's already shown you the math indicating that they don't outclass invention, in fact everyone in this thread that does invention says that invention is better, sure your profit margins are smaller, but your return on investment is pretty much instant and you can produce in such large quantities that any advantage the t2 bpo gives you is rendered moot.

The only way someone would get any real advantage by having t2 bpos is if they had 10 or so (they must all be of an item that actually have good margins or else "what's the point") and they got them from the lottery so they don't have to recoup the 200+ billion isk purchase cost.
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-05-05 18:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gamer4liff
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Sigras wrote:

so you're telling me that you understand that selling a BPO is worth more than it will make in almost a decade...

So your real complaint isnt that T2 BPOs make a ton of ISK; you're complaining that you dont have the opportunity to play with the T2 BPOs and feel super powerful even though selling them and doing ANYTHING else is clearly the better financial decision.

This would make sense if you couldnt sell T2 BPOs but people do it all the time. Consider buying one... The math says that owning a T2 BPO is not nearly as good an idea as selling it for 9 years worth of production profit...


No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else.

Except for capital costs, capital risk, lack of flexibility, scalability, relocation risk, and a wealth of other factors, sure, T2 BPOs outclass invention... if ME and avoiding the admittedly annoying invention process is all you care about.

Frankly you're never going to have "equality" even if T2 BPOs do go away. People manufacturing in certain 0.0 outposts will be able to manufacture more efficiently than those in empire, and then there's the teams mechanic, lord knows how that will shake out. There will always be somebody better positioned/better vertically integrated than you too.

CCP isn't going to straight up remove anything, they will either make invention more profitable/less annoying through adjusting Invention ME or the invention process, or they will find a way to reduce BPO production. They said T2 BPO values will go down, and there will be a transition period, beyond that, there's not much to be said. Transition might imply a conversion to limited runs, but even if they do, I'd expect the run count to be fairly generous, and I'd consider it far more likely they'd go different routes to balancing them that don't rely on formulaic reimbursement of some kind.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#35 - 2014-05-05 18:47:18 UTC
Trolling post removed.

Forum rule 5. Trolling is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-05-05 19:40:08 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
The only way someone would get any real advantage by having t2 bpos is if they had 10 or so (they must all be of an item that actually have good margins or else "what's the point") and they got them from the lottery so they don't have to recoup the 200+ billion isk purchase cost.


I hear if you mine your own ore, that means the ore is free, am I right guys?
LiBraga
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-05-05 19:53:43 UTC
Octoven wrote:
LiBraga wrote:
During the Industry Panel yesterday @FanFest...

CCP have said that they will be removing T2 BPOs. Expect to hear more about it after the summer expansion, probably when they redo the Invention balancing.

And for all you T2 BPO owners... they did say that you'll receive some form of compensation.


This is another troll post, that was never said, please stick to the topic...infact can we get ISD to go ahead and edit his post?


Unfortunately for you... they won't and that's because everything I've said is factually correct.

They won't do anything about it now and it makes sense that they will look at it in more depth when they revise invention (as the two areas are associated) . Either way... it will be after the summer expansion.

Go check out any blog about the Indy panel @Fanfest... the 3 most known ones all have it on there.
NOTE :- Do not confuse the Indy Presentation with the Indy Panel... One was a presentation, the other was Q&A.

If it moves.... You obviously didn't kill it the first time.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#38 - 2014-05-06 07:17:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
No, I tell you that T2 BPO are a problem for the Invention community because T2 BPO outclass Invention on every level imaginable. I've never told anything else.



you are doing it wrong.


You can spam several lines with bpc's. Yes the t2 owner makes 1 item cheaper. YOu make 10 in the same time. After their daily builds are bought up....its now invention's ballgame. CCP did not release 30000 hac bpos'...at some point the bpo based items are gone.


Invention gives flexibility. CCP nerfs t2 ship/imodule....its not going to be a hot seller a good prediction . Smart inventors saw this change in the wind while still on SISI and switched to the new hotness yet to be gold disked and stopped inventing the item about to take sales slumps. T2 owner is stuck hoping for sales and maybe a rebufff later..


Tar'z
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-05-06 18:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tar'z
The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay.
The counter argument seems to be: The T2 BPO will always bring in more profit being sold than being used.

What is unfair seems to be: That CCP handed these BPOs out to a select number of players thus new players have no shot at such a deal themselves.
The counter argument seems to be: CCP gives out lots of rewards that have special bonuses, it's always been that way and this is no different.

This is where I have to disagree. If CCP hands out a fancy ship or officer modules to a player or player group, that gives them an advantage but the advantage is always destructible. T2 BPO on the other hand can be used in such a way that they are never at risk. I don't have a problem with CCP giving players an advantage as a reward, but I do think this advantage should always be destructible when used.

I'd vote for complete removal of T2 BPO from the game therefore, even if that does screw over a couple of people.
Sigras
Conglomo
#40 - 2014-05-06 19:07:24 UTC
Tar'z wrote:
The complaint seems to be: T2 BPO outperform T2 BPC and cannot be be acquired through gameplay.

You mean other than buying them from players just like you buy everything else in game?
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